tomlin does it again

passes up on the 53 yarder

No timeouts before the 2 min warning. what the heck was that about?

though with how shitty our offense played the bengals didn't look like they were trying too hard for the 1st down

So if Tomlin allows Boswell to kick the 53 yarder, and he makes it, which he probably would. We dont need the touch down on that final drive, we kick a field goal and tie it and go to over time.

He has done this like 3 times this season

at what point do we quit defending this guy and say hes an idiot.

I dont care that hes playing with an injury decimated team, he makes stupid fucking decisions.

ImperialFan wrote:

So if Tomlin allows Boswell to kick the 53 yarder, and he makes it, which he probably would. We dont need the touch down on that final drive, we kick a field goal and tie it and go to over time.

I get what you're saying, but you can't change one variable and have everything that happened after it remain exactly the same. Changing that one play would change everything that happened after it. If they attempt the 53-yard field goal and make it, perhaps Cincy returns the ensuing kickoff for a TD. We don't know what would have happened after the field goal, but we do know that the rest of the game from that point on wouldn't have played out exactly the same.

With that said, I get your point.

Wallace108 wrote:

ImperialFan wrote:

So if Tomlin allows Boswell to kick the 53 yarder, and he makes it, which he probably would. We dont need the touch down on that final drive, we kick a field goal and tie it and go to over time.

I get what you're saying, but you can't change one variable and have everything that happened after it remain exactly the same. Changing that one play would change everything that happened after it. If they attempt the 53-yard field goal and make it, perhaps Cincy returns the ensuing kickoff for a TD. We don't know what would have happened after the field goal, but we do know that the rest of the game from that point on wouldn't have played out exactly the same.

With that said, I get your point.

Right, I realize this, but chances are boswell makes that FG, I think everyone would agree that theres about a 75% chances he makes that from what we've seen so far. Of course I understand your butterfly effect example, but we get those 3 points, our chances of winning that game go way up.

Fire Arians wrote:

No timeouts before the 2 min warning. what the heck was that about?

though with how shitty our offense played the bengals didn't look like they were trying too hard for the 1st down

Yeah, that was kind of odd.

I was thinking that he wanted to save some to have on offense, but if he takes the TO with 2:30 left and the next 2, then he likely gets the football back before the 2 min warning and gets 1 play in before 2:00. Only saved maybe 10 seconds, but would have given that back on the long completion he used the TO on.

It was a wash IMO in terms of saving time.

Wallace108 wrote:

ImperialFan wrote:

So if Tomlin allows Boswell to kick the 53 yarder, and he makes it, which he probably would. We dont need the touch down on that final drive, we kick a field goal and tie it and go to over time.

I get what you're saying, but you can't change one variable and have everything that happened after it remain exactly the same. Changing that one play would change everything that happened after it. If they attempt the 53-yard field goal and make it, perhaps Cincy returns the ensuing kickoff for a TD. We don't know what would have happened after the field goal, but we do know that the rest of the game from that point on wouldn't have played out exactly the same.

With that said, I get your point.

You play to win the game. HELLOOOO!!!

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

Fire Arians wrote:

No timeouts before the 2 min warning. what the heck was that about?

though with how shitty our offense played the bengals didn't look like they were trying too hard for the 1st down

Yeah, that was kind of odd.  

I was thinking that he wanted to save some to have on offense, but if he takes the TO with 2:30 left and the next 2, then he likely gets the football back before the 2 min warning and gets 1 play in before 2:00.  Only saved maybe 10 seconds, but would have given that back on the long completion he used the TO on.

It was a wash IMO in terms of saving time.

In regards to this. My professional opinion (what I do in Madden) If I am faced with this I take the time out around 2:30 left thats a stop, 2 minute warning is another stop. then take the second time out. I always end up with the  ball back sooner that way.  Use the no huddle of offense , hurry the fuck up and try to score a touch down with like 1:40 and a time out.  I know it wouldnt have made much of a difference, but 5 seconds more and they could have ran 2 plays at the end instead of 1.

53 harder into the open end is a "for sure" make?!

BR7 doesn't throw that last pick, we win.

Bryant gets one more block on that 2nd to last play, we win.

Plenty of other plays COULD have happened to change the result to our favor.

This loss isn't on Tomlin; it's on BR7

fer69 wrote:

Wallace108 wrote:

ImperialFan wrote:

So if Tomlin allows Boswell to kick the 53 yarder, and he makes it, which he probably would. We dont need the touch down on that final drive, we kick a field goal and tie it and go to over time.

I get what you're saying, but you can't change one variable and have everything that happened after it remain exactly the same. Changing that one play would change everything that happened after it. If they attempt the 53-yard field goal and make it, perhaps Cincy returns the ensuing kickoff for a TD. We don't know what would have happened after the field goal, but we do know that the rest of the game from that point on wouldn't have played out exactly the same.

With that said, I get your point.

You play to win the game.  HELLOOOO!!!

I'm not sure what your post has to do with what I said. Am I missing something?

ImperialFan wrote:

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

Fire Arians wrote:

No timeouts before the 2 min warning. what the heck was that about?

though with how shitty our offense played the bengals didn't look like they were trying too hard for the 1st down

Yeah, that was kind of odd.  

I was thinking that he wanted to save some to have on offense, but if he takes the TO with 2:30 left and the next 2, then he likely gets the football back before the 2 min warning and gets 1 play in before 2:00.  Only saved maybe 10 seconds, but would have given that back on the long completion he used the TO on.

It was a wash IMO in terms of saving time.

In regards to this. My professional opinion (what I do in Madden) If I am faced with this I take the time out around 2:30 left thats a stop, 2 minute warning is another stop. then take the second time out. I always end up with the  ball back sooner that way.  Use the no huddle of offense , hurry the fuck up and try to score a touch down with like 1:40 and a time out.  I know it wouldnt have made much of a difference, but 5 seconds more and they could have ran 2 plays at the end instead of 1.

I agree with your professional opinion So we give up a timeout we get that back at the 2 minute warning. It would have given us extra plays and at least more chances to pull this game out of our ass.
I can't imagine what Tomlin was thinking.

I've said it before (at SF) and I'll say it again.....Tomlin is poor at clock management.

Here's a solution.....Dan Rooney: "Coach, we've hired Bill Parcells as a consultant....he is going to sit down with you and review game tape of clock management situations.....end of half and end of game situations......since he was a master of clock management (just as his pupil Belichick is now), we're hoping that you will improve in that regard."
"It's for your own professional growth and the team will benefit from it."

It will never happen due to bruised egos, but it would be worth a shot.

yeah some of you guys can rush to tomlins rescue, obviously there are some people that are in denial that he has any room for improvement or makes any stupid calls that even the announcers are baffled by. Tomlin is a good coach, I like him. Hes a cool dude! but I think he has made some decisions that are almost UNIVERSALLY head scratchers. Only people that justify it are tomlin fans, some people like my self see the whole picture.

Im not saying he lets Boswell try that field goal that we win the game. Like my friend said it completely changes the events in the game, so no I cant say that at the end it would have been 16-13 instead of 16-10, but tomlin didnt even go for it this time, HE ELECTED TO PUNT. Now I'm no Vince Lombardi But if my team is ahead 10-6 (4 points) and our star running back is out and our QB just doesnt have it.... I TRY FOR THE DAMN FIELD GOAL TO MAKE IT 13-6 (A 7 point game!!!) I DONT PUNT THE FUCKING BALL FROM THE 38 YARD LINE AND TRY TO PIN THEM BACK THATS A LOT FUCKING HARDER THAN KICKING A 53 YARD FIELD GOAL... especially from a kicker who hasnt missed a FG yet and showed he had NO problem what so ever drilling it down the middle from 51 at heins field on what wasnt exactly a 'calm evening'.

That decision was STUPID
the clock management was pointless! why let 30 seconds run off the clock? He knew we would need a damn TD not a FG. Saving time outs like he did gives the impression that you are going to use one of themto stop the clock before you kick a FG, only problem is we needed a TD. Those extra 30 seconds sure would have heped us when we were driving the ball down the field only to run one play with 4 seconds left! what the fuck? how can anyone in any way justify that. It is simple math, anyone that can explain why letting 30 seconds run off the clock when you are down 13-10 deep in your opponents territory and they are almost definitely going to be able to kick a field goal and force you to score a touch down. Its fucking common sense. These are things coaches should know, I mean those 2 calls I speak of arent even gambles THEY ARE GIVE AWAYS. When the clock is working against you YOU STOP IT, dont force a hobbled ben to try to drive 80 yards in a fucking minute and 15 seconds and 2 of yours precious time outs(however many he conserved) that you dont even really fucking need if you run the no huddle.

Some people need to take the fucking homer glasses off

like i said I like tomlin but a dumb pointless call is a dumb pointless call, the announcers were fricken baffled and frankly so was any other logically thinking person watching that game.

I don't even see where an argument could be made that by punting the ball up 10-6 with about a whole quarter left to play is going to prevent an opponent from scoring more than 1 field goal when our defense constantly allows the opponent to move the ball at will until they get close to our endzone then we toughen up. Id say the probabilities of us holding that 4 point lead the rest of the game would be quite small. To me punting it was Tomlins way of laying out a game plan where we are going to hold that 4 point lead until the end of the game/OR have SUCH a better chance to add to the lead when our offense was stagnant and ben was obviously playing hurt, that 38 yard line or whatever was the closest I saw us to the endzone the whole day if you disregard the TD and other FG. What did they get a net of 18 yards on that punt are you kidding me? There are people that understand this logic?

I've been affiliated with boxing insiders for a long time. I know they set up fights to be 'thrown.' I won't say this game was thrown, but it had all the markings.

SteelerEmpire wrote:

I've been affiliated with boxing insiders for a long time. I know they set up fights to be 'thrown.' I won't say this game was thrown, but it had all the markings.

It looked like both teams were trying to throw the game. The Bengals also looked like they were trying to find any way possible to lose the game, we just did a better job at it.

I know Dalton is a choker in big games but seriously 2 aborted snaps? A professional veteran QB shouldn't ever be doing that.

On clock management and player management

by Ray Fittipaldo

Steelers coach Mike Tomlin was criticized for his clock management late in the 16-10 loss to the Bengals on Sunday. Tomlin is not a master at clock management, but in this case, the cries of mismanaging the game appear to be a little off base in my opinion.

Here is how the mini controversy started: After Ben Roethlisberger threw an interception that was returned to the Steelers 26-yard line the Bengals had a 13-10 lead and took over with 2:44 on the clock. They ran Jeremy Hill for 1-yard. Instead of calling a timeout after the play was over (probably at about 2:38), Tomlin let the clock run down to the two-minute warning. Tomlin then called consecutive timeouts after two more Hill runs, and the Bengals kicked a field goal with 1:51 remaining, leaving Tomlin with one timeout for the final drive.

When questioned on the decision after the game Tomlin said he’d rather have a timeout in his pocket for the final drive than the extra time.

Let’s play the what-if game for a moment. Let’s say Tomlin called a timeout with 2:38 left. Assuming the Bengals call two more runs and the Steelers used two more timeouts they’d have approximately 2:20 or 2:25 for the final drive if the Bengals kicked off for a touchback. And no timeouts other than the two-minute warning.

That might appear to be an egregious error, but it’s tough to assume the Bengals’ play-calling would remain the same in that situation. If the Steelers had forced their hand, Marvin Lewis might have allowed Andy Dalton to pass on second or third down. And if Dalton converts for a first down the game is over.

Considering the Steelers had just given up a 9-yard touchdown pass to A.J. Green on the previous drive and struggled to cover him for most of the day it’s probably a 50-50 gamble that the Bengals would have converted and ended the game right there.

By letting the time run off, Tomlin forced Lewis to kick the field goal and gave his offense the ball on the 20-yard line with 1:51 left. Those are difficult odds, but not insurmountable, and they’re certainly better than watching the Bengals kneel on the ball to run out the clock.

It’s fair to criticize Tomlin’s clock management in some instances. As I previously mentioned, he’s not one of the best in the business when it comes to that aspect of the game. But in this case it’s nitpicking in a game that was blown in many other areas, most notably the three interceptions the quarterback threw and the 10 penalties that cost his team points and field position throughout the game.

to read rest of article:

http://sportsblogs.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers-steelers-blog/2015/11/01/On-clock-management-and-player-management.html

^ Charlie Batch said pretty much the same thing on Cooler Talk.

He said as a QB running the 2 minute drill, you really want to have that TO in your pocket. This leaves the middle of the field routes open to use. Even if you aren't going to pass there, the Bengals have to defend them.

If you are out of TOs, then the middle of the field is no longer in play.

As a side note, I really doubt Tomlin made that decision in a bubble. I am sure Haley and Ben were involved.

I see what you two are saying but, it will never make sense to me, not in that situation. Like weve all agreed there's no way to tell what would have happened if things were done differently. I just see us in better shape with more time. If you need to stop the clock that bad spike the ball and lose the down if we could have just have 10 seconds left instead of 4 (assuming we move down the field) thats another shot at some damn good wide outs, I bet ben wouldnt have over thrown that pass twice. We will never know. The real shocker to me was passing up the 53 yard field goal then punting.

I know I'm being a monday morning QB, but come on guys every game tomlin gives us a head scratcher.

A lot of the defending of Tomlin's clock management would make more sense if he didn't screw up the last few minutes of the first half. He burned two timeouts with well over a minute left. When the Steelers didn't convert a third down, they punted to the Bengals. If it weren't for a fortunate bounce that had the punt go out of bounds at the five yard line, the Bengals would have had the ball at the twenty yard line with 50 seconds to go and a handful of timeouts. In that scenario, the Bengals would have had an opportunity to put points on the board before halftime. He left too much time on the clock for the opponent.

That's clearly not managing the clock well. He has a tendency to burn timeouts and leave too much time on the clock if a late drive fails. He needs to learn to let more time expire off the clock until the team is in scoring range. He makes this mistake repeatedly.

The fact that he handles every situation differently demonstrates that he's never really sure how he should handle things. The first half situation was handled with a completely different approach than the end of game situation. He seems to do that all the time. His inconsistency in the way he manages situations gives the impression that he's unsure of how to go about it.

I understand that all coaches get questioned about clock management. I'm by no means a Tomlin basher. I'm happy to have him as the coach of this team, but we all know that clock management hasn't been his strong suit.

pczach wrote:

A lot of the defending of Tomlin's clock management would make more sense if he didn't screw up the last few minutes of the first half. He burned two timeouts with well over a minute left. When the Steelers didn't convert a third down, they punted to the Bengals. If it weren't for a fortunate bounce that had the punt go out of bounds at the five yard line, the Bengals would have had the ball at the twenty yard line with 50 seconds to go and a handful of timeouts. In that scenario, the Bengals would have had an opportunity to put points on the board before halftime. He left too much time on the clock for the opponent.

That's clearly not managing the clock well. He has a tendency to burn timeouts and leave too much time on the clock if a late drive fails. He needs to learn to let more time expire off the clock until the team is in scoring range. He makes this mistake repeatedly.

The fact that he handles every situation differently demonstrates that he's never really sure how he should handle things. The first half situation was handled with a completely different approach than the end of game situation. He seems to do that all the time. His inconsistency in the way he manages situations gives the impression that he's unsure of how to go about it.

I understand that all coaches get questioned about clock management. I'm by no means a Tomlin basher. I'm happy to have him as the coach of this team, but we all know that clock management hasn't been his strong suit.

To piggyback off of that. Tomlin is still a young coach, he's still learning. I think his clock management is horrible and always has been, and that shit is important. Tomlin has room for growth. Ill still take him over any coach in the league because I believe once he gets a little more time under his belt hes going to be an all time best. This guy really needs to quit coaching from the gut. If his gut feelings were right id say go for it, but these gut decisions are almost always wrong. "Saber-metrics" is a term usually used in baseball, but it can be applied to football. Play the percentages, its boring but it is proven to work. I can think of 5 calls from tomlin this year that just left me shaking my head. Its like he takes the least likely path to victory because he thinks that today its gonna work, but really that feeling in his gut? Its halftime hotdogs being digested.

The Bengals offense hadn't done anything all day.

Berry had been pinning them inside the 10 all game long.

The FG was towards the open end.

SUMMATION:
Punting was a sound choice.


.

SteelerEmpire wrote:

I've been affiliated with boxing insiders for a long time. I know they set up fights to be 'thrown.' I won't say this game was thrown, but it had all the markings.

I completely agree with this, I had this feeling all along. There was one play in the 4th where AJ Green caught a pass near the sideline and looked like he was going to get the 1st, then he was wrapped up and tackled and thrown backwards by the defender.

He CLEARLY did not get the 1st, no question about it. Yet the officials hurried along and moved the chains without question. Some of the spots were TERRIBLE, and they seemed to favor Cinci and go against us.

Tomlin had to burn a challenge flag on a simple spot where the ref was standing RIGHT in front of the play, yet he got it so far wrong it was the difference between a 1st down or not.

What about the P.I. in the endzone that was then picked up and recanted? What in the hell? Don't throw the god damn flag if you're going to pick it up after the fact. Bullshit.

Obviously the officiating is out of our control, but you do get the sense sometimes that either a.) they have an agenda or b.) they are that incompetent that we have to question whether or not they're calling the game objectively.

lotas wrote:

Obviously the officiating is out of our control, but you do get the sense sometimes that either a.) they have an agenda or b.) they are that incompetent that we have to question whether or not they're calling the game objectively.

Speaking from the perspective of someone who watched the ending of the Duke-Miami game within 18 hours of the Steelers-Bengals game, the officiating on Sunday did not seem that bad to me.