Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem

I know we were discussing this in the game thread, but I think the aftermath deserves its own thread since it's a topic that is unlikely to go away anytime soon.

Tomlin's statement

"These are very divisive times for our country." For us, as a football team, it's about us remaining solid. We are not gonna be divided by anything said by anyone. That's the thing that I posted to our guys. I said, 'If you feel the need to do anything, I'm going to be supportive of that. As Americans, you have that right.' But whatever we do, we're gonna do 100 percent, we're gonna do together. We're not gonna let divisive times or divisive individuals affect our agenda. This collection of men, we're chasing something here in 2017, and we're not gonna play politics with football players, with football coaches.

"We're not participating in the anthem today. Not to be disrespectful to the anthem, to remove ourselves from the circumstance. People shouldn't have to choose. If a guy wants to go about his normal business and participate in the anthem, he shouldn't be forced to choose sides. If a guy feels the need to do something, he shouldn't be separated from his teammate who chooses not to. So we're not participating today. That's our decision. We're gonna be 100 percent. We came here to play a football game. That's our intentions, and we're gonna play and play to win."

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/pittsburgh-steelers-national-anthem-locker-room-mike-tomlin/3hrz5wcmuui21tg8efyoe4uv4

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Ben's statement

“We decided we were going to talk about what we were going to do because we knew some guys wanted to take a knee, guys wanted to stand. We said whatever we do, we need to make sure we are unified as one group because that’s what we’re about and that’s what it should be about is staying together as one unit, and one group, and one brotherhood, things like that. And so rather than having some guys kneel and some guys stand, the conclusion was made kind of by everybody that the best thing to do was to stay in locker room, or in the tunnel if you will, and show respect that way.”

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/09/roethlisberger-no-issue-villanueva-taking-part-national-anthem/

So remaining in the tunnel was about team unity. Not everyone was happy with Villanueva standing alone ...

James Harrison:
“We thought we were all in attention with the same agreement, obviously. But, I guess we weren’t.”

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/09/roethlisberger-no-issue-villanueva-taking-part-national-anthem/

Here's a long but good story talking about how the team came to its decision ...

Why the Steelers stayed in the locker room during the national anthem

CHICAGO -- No one person called Steelers players together Saturday night.

Chris Hubbard found out there would be a players-only meeting because fullback Roosevelt Nix texted to tell him as much. Teammates spread word of the meeting organically, passing word onto one another when they were told of it.

Every player that traveled with the team to Chicago attended. And after their regularly scheduled game day eve session with the coaching staff - but before bed checks - they gathered in a meeting room at the team hotel, the JW Marriott at 151 W. Adams St. downtown, to debate, then vote on how they would respond to comments made by president Donald Trump suggesting NFL owners "fire" players who kneel during the national anthem to protest racial inequality and police brutality.

Multiple players said that before the vote they had come to the understanding that whatever the team ultimately decided, by popular show of hands, would determine what they would all do while the "Star-Spangled Banner" was sung before Sunday's 1 p.m. ET kickoff with the Chicago Bears. Some disagreement remained after the game on if left tackle and Bronze Star Army Ranger Alejandro Villanueva would be exempt from the collective decision.

Full story: http://www.pennlive.com/steelers/index.ssf/2017/09/steelers_national_anthem_vote.html

Anyone else sick of this political bullshit? Sorry I don't know if I'm the only one here, but I don't care who sits, stands, scratches their balls, or takes a shit during the national anthem. It's their own choice to do what they do, and their freedom to do so. It's what makes our country great, and well, if we're forced to stand for the anthem and have no choice in the matter, well, maybe move to north korea where something like that is required. As a veteran, I prefer people respect the flag, but at the same time, I respect their decision and freedom to do what they want.

In any case what I really want to say, is I wish they would keep politics out of football. I watch this game for entertainment, not to keep tabs on who's standing for the flag and who's not. If I wanted more politics I'd tune into Fox News or CNN or some shit. I want to watch football, PERIOD. And it makes me sick that it's becoming politicized. Football is one of my escapes from everyday bullshit. Get that fucking shit out of here (The politics in football that is, not you Wallace ).

I think this anthem controversy killed their focus for the bears game.

Fire Arians wrote:

Anyone else sick of this political bullshit? Sorry I don't know if I'm the only one here, but I don't care who sits, stands, scratches their balls, or takes a shit during the national anthem. It's their own choice to do what they do, and their freedom to do so. It's what makes our country great, and well, if we're forced to stand for the anthem and have no choice in the matter, well, maybe move to north korea where something like that is required. As a veteran, I prefer people respect the flag, but at the same time, I respect their decision and freedom to do what they want.

In any case what I really want to say, is I wish they would keep politics out of football. I watch this game for entertainment, not to keep tabs on who's standing for the flag and who's not. If I wanted more politics I'd tune into Fox News or CNN or some shit. I want to watch football, PERIOD. And it makes me sick that it's becoming politicized. Football is one of my escapes from everyday bullshit. Get that fucking shit out of here (The politics in football that is, not you Wallace ).

So very well said.

Fire Arians wrote:

Anyone else sick of this political bullshit? Sorry I don't know if I'm the only one here, but I don't care who sits, stands, scratches their balls, or takes a shit during the national anthem. It's their own choice to do what they do, and their freedom to do so. It's what makes our country great, and well, if we're forced to stand for the anthem and have no choice in the matter, well, maybe move to north korea where something like that is required. As a veteran, I prefer people respect the flag, but at the same time, I respect their decision and freedom to do what they want.

In any case what I really want to say, is I wish they would keep politics out of football. I watch this game for entertainment, not to keep tabs on who's standing for the flag and who's not. If I wanted more politics I'd tune into Fox News or CNN or some shit. I want to watch football, PERIOD. And it makes me sick that it's becoming politicized. Football is one of my escapes from everyday bullshit. Get that fucking shit out of here (The politics in football that is, not you Wallace ).

Couldn't agree more, sick of everything being turned into a political issue. Honestly all the kneeling, standing with arms locked, all that BS... All it is doing is giving Trump the attention he craves. He said something he knew would be inflammatory so that it would get a negative response, every team in the NFL fed right into it. Honestly I shut my Facebook account off today, because I'm sick of the political BS. Everything I read on there has something to do with politics. It's outlandish. I remember a time in America where we could all laugh together, poke fun at everything, and nobody got butthurt about it. Nowadays you can't say or do anything without someone getting offended. Social media (and the mainstream media) has only amplified the issue and made things a million times worse. I just wish people would shut the hell up and move on with their lives instead of taking everything little thing personally. Who gives a shit if Trump tweets, its' dumb, ignore it. Stop giving him attention.

I am also tired of athletes who get everything handed to them on a silver platter trying to talk to me about oppression. I'm still paying my student loans, I got my loans on my own and paid my own way through college. I watched a lot of spoiled athletes get catered to. Didn't even have to show up for class and yet they still passed. As an R.A. I watched them get away with doing drugs, having huge parties and drinking underage and providing alcohol to minors... All the while they only had to show up to class a handful of times during the semester while I was supposed to be there everyday. A lot of these football players can['t even string together an intelligent well thought-out sentence when they talk and you expect me to believe they weren't just passed on through college due to their athletic prowess? If you ask me that's oppression, the fact that people like me are expected to earn our way but others get special treatment because of their athletic capabilities. Despite that fact I'm happy to just watch a sport that I love, but now I have to watch spoiled athletes use the sport as a political platform to act like they're being oppressed by the police, and now the President... The entire situation makes me sick to my stomach. It's stupid, senseless, and makes us look like spoiled, entitled idiots to the rest of the world.

Maybe the NFL should stop taking money from the military and go back to the old way of teams being in the locker room during the national anthem, that would remove all controversy.

But like others, I don't watch football to gather my political opinion, I watch it to be entertained and God willing at the end of the season rub it the face of other fans that my team won another Super Bowl.

Alejandro Villanueva's jersey becomes an overnight best-seller after he stands for anthem

As noted by ESPN’s Darren Rovell, Villanueva’s No. 78 Steelers jersey is currently the sixth-best selling and searched jersey on NFLShop.com.

He’s behind skill-position players Marshawn Lynch and Derek Carr of the Raiders, Carson Wentz of the Eagles, Green Bay’s Aaron Rodgers and custom Patriots* jerseys.

https://sports.yahoo.com/alejandro-villanuevas-jersey-becomes-overnight-best-seller-stands-anthem-150312271.html
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A few months ago, if someone had said that 2 Steelers players would have top-selling jerseys at some point this season, none of us would have guessed it would be Conner and Villanueva.

It's hard to hate on a former Army Ranger / war hero, and a cancer survivor who was determined enough to practice while going through chemo.

On a side note if Bell doesn't turn it up, he's gone and Conner might be the starting RB next year.

I would make the argument Bell is gone regardless. There's only so much money to go around.

My grandfather was one of the first African American  marines  "allowed" to serve in the Pacific in WWII. He rarely ever talked about it to me, my dad, or the rest of the family... Well Not the War part of it....He would explain the values he felt benefited him....about keeping your body in shape, discipline in what you want to do, and always...always be proud of yourself and hold your chin high.

I had to press him on the rest about what the war was like, his unit, and what they did. And from there that pretty much always made me think of him when I stood for the anthem/pledge of allegiance among other things.

So yeah I want to stand and use that time to recognize my grandfather and other service members......And if I wanted to protest during the anthem Id probably try an form a prayer circle.

However there are no laws that force Football Players to follow a strict code of conduct during the anthem......and I think that's one of the reasons why America is as great as it is. I don't think the rest of the world thinks of a protest like this  as a joke. To me it shows how free and willing we are to engage on issues we disagree with.

I fail to see why there should be some big outrage and condemnation of these athletes for peacefully protesting to bring awareness to racial injustice. To the point of boycotting the league.

What is a disgrace to service members and this country is the President of the United States, who is the Commander and Chief, using a wall dedicated to fallen heroes as a prop so he can brag about his election and take shots at his enemies in the media,

Sorry I'll save my disgust for acts that actually disgrace this nation.

Good posts so far. Obviously, this is a divisive issue, and I had second thoughts about starting this thread because we have an entire forum dedicated to politics, and we've always tried to keep politics and controversial issues out of the Steelers forum. But, like it or not, this issue is now intertwined with the NFL.

We have an incredible group of members here who always post respectfully, even when disagreeing. I have no doubt we'll see differing views in this thread, but hopefully the level of respect for each other remains the same as when we're talking about football.

Ok, getting off the soapbox and back to the topic ...

Ben has now taken a different view of the team's decision ...

Quote :

I was unable to sleep last night and want to share my thoughts and feelings on our team’s decision to remain in the tunnel for the National Anthem yesterday. The idea was to be unified as a team when so much attention is paid to things dividing our country, but I wish we approached it differently. We did not want to appear divided on the sideline with some standing and some kneeling or sitting.

As a team, it was not a protest of the flag or the Anthem. I personally don’t believe the Anthem is ever the time to make any type of protest. For me, and many others on my team and around the league, it is a tribute to those who commit to serve and protect our country, current and past, especially the ones that made the ultimate sacrifice.

I appreciate the unique diversity in my team and throughout the league and completely support the call for social change and the pursuit of true equality. Moving forward, I hope standing for the Anthem shows solidarity as a nation, that we stand united in respect for the people on the front lines protecting our freedom and keeping us safe. God bless those men and women.

http://www.br-7.com

Does the NFL Require Players to Stand for the National Anthem?

Here's what the game operations manual says regarding the national anthem, according to an NFL spokesperson:

The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.

It's important to note the use of the word "may" here. The NFL is not considering punishing fines on players or teams who choose to kneel or stay in the locker room during the national anthem, the spokesperson says.

http://time.com/4955704/nfl-league-rulebook-a62-63-national-anthem-rule/

Personally I think they could have picked a better venue for their protests.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/steelers-villanueva-i-threw-teammates-under-the-bus-during-national-anthem/

If he would have just stayed in the tunnel with his teammates, hand-on-heart (like Chickillo) much of this shit-show would have been avoided.

Wallace108 wrote:

Good posts so far. Obviously, this is a divisive issue, and I had second thoughts about starting this thread because we have an entire forum dedicated to politics, and we've always tried to keep politics and controversial issues out of the Steelers forum. But, like it or not, this issue is now intertwined with the NFL.

We have an incredible group of members here who always post respectfully, even when disagreeing. I have no doubt we'll see differing views in this thread, but hopefully the level of respect for each other remains the same as when we're talking about football.

Ok, getting off the soapbox and back to the topic ...

Ben has now taken a different view of the team's decision ...

Quote :

I was unable to sleep last night and want to share my thoughts and feelings on our team’s decision to remain in the tunnel for the National Anthem yesterday. The idea was to be unified as a team when so much attention is paid to things dividing our country, but I wish we approached it differently. We did not want to appear divided on the sideline with some standing and some kneeling or sitting.

As a team, it was not a protest of the flag or the Anthem. I personally don’t believe the Anthem is ever the time to make any type of protest. For me, and many others on my team and around the league, it is a tribute to those who commit to serve and protect our country, current and past, especially the ones that made the ultimate sacrifice.

I appreciate the unique diversity in my team and throughout the league and completely support the call for social change and the pursuit of true equality. Moving forward, I hope standing for the Anthem shows solidarity as a nation, that we stand united in respect for the people on the front lines protecting our freedom and keeping us safe. God bless those men and women.

http://www.br-7.com

Amen bro, what I always thought made America great was to be allowed to have our differences, but still be united. My time in the military was short, but what made it special to me, was meeting friends from all types of backgrounds and beliefs, which gave me a bigger perspective on life in general. And despite our differences, realizing we all were part of the same team (it doesn't matter if you're air force, army, marines, or navy, it all starts with United States), and we could all be friends at the end of the day and kick back a few beers.

Being an outsider (nothing to do with your country) I can say I (and probably most Europeans) don't see this as a joke or that this make you look like spoiled idiots. Your president on the other hand...

I know that this is a very sensitive matter to all of you. I have seen many reactions of fans (not only Steelers) claiming they're done with their team and the NFL in their entirety. I don't really have an opinion on this matter since I'm not involved. Only thing I want to add is that it's strange for me to see some extreme reactions (one way or the other) by fans that I don't see when one of their players is accused for domestic violence etc. which is far worse imo.

This is a silly place, man. We'll pretty much let our players get away with anything, but the moment they remind us they are black and there is social injustice, we (white folks) lose our damn minds.

Rhyno wrote:

This is a silly place, man. We'll pretty much let our players get away with anything, but the moment they remind us they are black and there is social injustice, we (white folks) lose our damn minds.

I don't know what moment you're referring to, but I'm not blind. Every time I look at players my eyes are able to determine if they are white, black, asian, etc. I don't need someone to remind me of who they are or where they come from to recognize social injustice. However, if players want to continue to play the card, it'll be like everything else and people will grow numb to it.

My life has taught me you stand for the National Anthem, you show respect to the men & women who fought for our freedoms (some to the death). If you ask them what they were protesting on Sunday I'd bet you couldn't a definitive answer from them. Rosa Parks knew what she was sitting in the front of the bus for, and even Kapernick knew what he was kneeling for - although he never felt any of the social injustices he mentioned, but I was happy to hear not only did he kneel, but he gave money to help the cause.

1. The POTUS never should have called the players SOBs.
2. Players can disrespect the POTUS all they want, but when they disrespect the flag and the anthem, then I stop listening.
3. You want people to listen, then protest in a manner in which they'll hear you.

Rhyno wrote:

This is a silly place, man. We'll pretty much let our players get away with anything, but the moment they remind us they are black and there is social injustice, we (white folks) lose our damn minds.

What social injustice is there? All I ever hear about in the media is how minorities are supposedly treated so poorly. Funny considering I've had people get jobs and get promoted ahead of me simply because they are female, or from a minority group. Nevermind the fact I have a college education, or years more of experience working specialty jobs that tie directly into the promotion or job I put in for... It makes the company look good to hire/promote females/minorities even if they don't meet the qualifications for the job. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying females or minorities shouldn't get promoted or hired... They shouldn't get hired/promoted based on their skin color or gender alone. If they have the qualifications more power to them, but when they don't.... That's inequality. Inequality that I've personally experienced countless times putting in for promotions over the past decade and inequality that never gets mentioned because being white and complaining about that makes you an automatic racist/sexist.

Nobody has ever offered me a scholarship for being white, yet there are scholarships out there for minorities... Tell me how that is fair. I mean I don't blame anyone for putting in for those, you have to save money where you can, but I have a buddy who is black that was offered a free ride to a four year university for being black... I had to pay my way through school though despite having better grades and working harder in school.

So I'm guessing the inequality and social injustice that's being referred to is the police shootings of black people... this is a farce. Unlawful shootings, that were totally unjustified are few and far between. People are literally making martyrs out of criminals and thugs that committed crimes, assaulted the police, etc... It doesn't matter if the shooting was justified, or if a court or jury says it was justified... If a white police officer shoots a black person the media and race baiters twist it to fit their narrative. The real injustice here is that the black community won't own up to the fact that it needs to change itself. Criminal activities and gang involvement isn't a problem created by the police, it's created by the black community raising children in unhealthy environments. That's the ugly truth. The police don't make these kids join gangs, and they don't make them lie, cheat, and steal. That's a choice, made by these individuals and they should be held accountable for their own actions instead of pointing fingers at the police. These shitbags like Kaepernick are out there lying and making martyrs out of douchebags like Mike Brown. Mike Brown assaulted a store clerk, robbed a store, assaulted a police officer, and attempted to disarm the same police officer... He gets shot and people lie about the incident saying he had his hands up and he was executed, the autopsy proves that was a lie... Yet the media and the race baiters keep referring to Mike Brown like he was some innocent little angel that got gunned down for absolutely no reason... It's insanity, and it needs to stop. Stop blaming the police, stop generalizing the police based on the actions of the few. If black people or any other minority, or white people for that matter don't want to grow up in poverty or live a life a crime then that's your CHOICE. If you want to be successful you have to work for it, if you are born into poverty, that's unfortunate, but it's not the fault of society, it's the fault of your parents and the circumstances they chose to raise a child in.

I'm so sick of hearing about social injustice. All of this bullshit started because of the Mike Brown shooting and it's built on lies and race baiting from scumbags like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who are tax-evading douchebags that profit off of controversy and inciting racial divides. That's not to say that the police don't commit wrongs, they do, they're human and unfortunately when there is a human element involved, they're going to make human mistakes, or commit wrongs. The police will never be perfect, and society never will be. Human beings are imperfect by nature.

All that being said I don't need a bunch of entitled athletes talking to me about social injustice and inequality while they're living in mansions and driving around in Ferraris and I'm scraping by on middle class wages doing far more actual work than they'll ever do at their job. Most of these professional athletes are dumber than a box of rocks, but they get passed through high school, and college, and make it into the pros because of their athletic prowess. Watch a show like Last Chance U and see how stupid some of these guys are and how a school will literally do anything to pass them through class so they can get their athletic production on the football field. Most of the guys have no business getting a scholarship or full ride in the first place, they're stupid, they don't want to work, they're disrespectful, entitled, and incredibly selfish... But hey, they can play football so let's pass them through and give them everything that good hard working people have to bust their asses to afford. Then they can make it to the pros, get rich, and then use my favorite sport and our National Anthem as a time to shove their asinine political ideology down my fucking throat week in and week out.

Enough is enough already with this BS. We are all human, we all bleed the same color... RED. Not a one of us is perfect, and that includes the police. The police are not out profiling systematically, or hunting down unarmed minorities. Criminals are criminals, and should be treated as such instead of people treating them like saints and celebrating them.

End rant. Sorry if this offends anyone but I've seriously had enough of politics, and all of this SJW crap.

Mach1 wrote:

Does the NFL Require Players to Stand for the National Anthem?

Here's what the game operations manual says regarding the national anthem, according to an NFL spokesperson:

   The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

   During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.

It's important to note the use of the word "may" here. The NFL is not considering punishing fines on players or teams who choose to kneel or stay in the locker room during the national anthem, the spokesperson says.

http://time.com/4955704/nfl-league-rulebook-a62-63-national-anthem-rule/

Personally I think they could have picked a better venue for their protests.

They broke the rules so why aren't fines being handed out? If they have the right (the very thing AV and many others fought for) to stay in the locker room then why was AV told not to go out on the field? Does he not have the same rights.
And where is the line drawn in regard to what the POTUS can and can't say? Here is a viewpoint worth listening to IMO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnfZu767LA

Tomlin was not looking for "participation", he was looking for CONFORMITY.

Art Rooney's response:
http://www.steelers.com/news/article-4/A-letter-to-Steelers-Nation/cf1816b3-85f9-4b11-bcfb-1012940b641d

Its funny to me how so much of the viewing public is going Crazy over not standing for the Anthem...i've been to football games and have witnessed large numbers of people doing everything but stand for the Anthem, wheres the Outrage???

When a Philando Castille, Amadou Diallo, or a Walter Scott, get killed for no reason, While a Dylan Roof can massacre black church worshipers who welcomed him with open arms, and be arrested without a scratch on him... that's a social injustice.

That is the heart Of Kaepernicks peaceful Silent Protest..he's not burning flags, or physically spitting on troops, And he's even contributed his hard earned cash to help poor kids..he just doesn't want any more Walter Scotts..unjustified Shootings committed by people who under the laws of this country are supposed to protect us..not shoot us in the back, or shoot us or when we're trying to show you our concealed carry permit

So It gets frustrating to some of us back folks when we hear some white people telling us to pipe down because we now have freedoms that we basically had to claw and fight for, and at one time would be killed just for speaking it...when according to the constitution we have a right to do so.

Stella Nation wrote:

Only thing I want to add is that it's strange for me to see some extreme reactions (one way or the other) by fans that I don't see when one of their players is accused for domestic violence etc. which is far worse imo.

It's selective outrage. I doubt it's just an American thing, but it is quite prevalent here, especially when it comes to issues of race.

For example, a white cop kills a black man, and you see protests. But where are all the protesters yelling Black Lives Matter when black men are mowing down other black men daily in Chicago?

On the flip side, you have selective outrage like BKAnthem mentioned ...

BKAnthem wrote:

Its funny to me how so much of the viewing public is going Crazy over not standing for the Anthem...i've been to football games and have witnessed large numbers of people doing everything but stand for the Anthem, wheres the Outrage???

It's kind of similar to how Steelers fans will defend Ben, but insist Brady is a cheater. And Patriot fans will defend Brady, but insist Ben is a rapist. We tend to think "our group" is always right, and the "other group" is always wrong. So we'll overlook the shortcomings of "our group," but will be quick to point out the failings of the "other group."

Unfortunately, Trump feeds off that dynamic. So did Obama, although he never got a fraction of the scrutiny for it.