Heated dispute between Haley and Brown

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/23783864/antonio-brown-todd-haley-at-odds-so-far-this-season

This is old news, but worth a read.  Last season it was BB and Haley, now it appears Brown and Haley are at odds. I'm only asking......is it time for Haley to go?

The sideline argument between Steelers offensive coordinator Todd Haley and receiver Antonio Brown, though not captured by television cameras Monday night, was very heated. It was the cause of considerable concern for some in the organization and did not come as a surprise to many Steelers.

The relationship between Haley and Brown has always been poor, according to several aware of the situation (“they've never gotten along,” one source put it), and given the combustible nature of their personalities, more fireworks could be ahead with the offense slumping badly in the first two defeats of the season. Should the Steelers falter again Sunday night against Chicago, there could be more incidents, and sources said other players besides Brown were at least on the periphery when Brown unleashed his diatribe on the coach, and may have joined in.

Quarterback Ben Roethlisberger's strained relationship with Haley drew plenty of headlines last season, but things have actually been more volatile with Brown. Roethlisberger and Haley spend considerable time together during training camp and their dynamic had changed for the better, but with Pittsburgh unable to run or pass in the early part of the season, there is concern within that the Roethlisberger/Haley relationship could fray once more as well.

Roethlisberger's timing with his receivers has been poor, and several of the pass catchers are upset they are not seeing more of the ball. The team is hopeful that with tight end Heath Miller and running back Le'Veon Bell on the mend that some progress is ahead, but that's far from certain at this point. The offensive line is struggling, Roethlisberger's footwork has suffered, and he's held the ball too long again at times

Read more:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/23783864/antonio-brown-todd-haley-at-odds-so-far-this-season

This season may be a character defining moment for the men that wear the black and gold. From the coaching staff to the players. We are only 3 games in to the season, and there is panic in Steelers Nation! It is possible for this team to turn around. WHile it sucks we are 0-3, we have to remind ourselves this is an anomaly and as fans we have been spoiled by our team's recent success.

Let's remember the 80's, as Noll finished out his career. It was rough. Even with Cowhere we had rough spots. But the team always returned to glory. Unfortunately in this day in age, fans can not handle having a bad season. They want all the gold and glory, without the pain that eventually comes with all that success.

It is NOT time to fire Haley, it is not time to fire Tomlin, or any other member of the coaching staff. It is time, as Chris Berman would day, to circle the wagons. This team has been been written off already by the main stream media, so be it.

It is time to dig deep, and believe that this team is capable of so much more and will come out and prove it.

I thought it was funny when they mentioned that Haley said it didn't happen and the same day Brown said it was true. Why on earth would Haley lie about that? Just acknowledge that it happened, chalk it up to frustration, and move along. Denying it just creates controversy which is the last thing this team needs. Well maybe second to last, more injuries would be the last.

supytalpeht wrote:

I thought it was funny when they mentioned that Haley said it didn't happen and the same day Brown said it was true. Why on earth would Haley lie about that? Just acknowledge that it happened, chalk it up to frustration, and move along. Denying it just creates controversy which is the last thing this team needs. Well maybe second to last, more injuries would be the last.

Remember, both Haley and Ben also denied that there were any issues between them last season as well. Ben finally acknowledged it this summer. I guess it's just an effort to keep any problems inside the locker room, so to speak, and avoid any distractions that would be created by the media focusing on it.

As for the original post ...

When I first heard about Brown and Haley's confrontation last week, naturally, I was concerned about it. You don't want to see the star receiver and OC getting into it on the sideline. I was expecting bad things to come from it. On hindsight, it looks like it worked out favorably. The offense showed signs of life against the Bears, and Brown had a monster game. Undoubtedly, some good came from the Brown-Haley confrontation. Compare that with the passive-aggressive relationship Ben and Haley had all last season, where no good came from it.

Personally, I still prefer not to see (or hear about) a player and coach jawing on the sideline. But at this point, hey, whatever works.

I agree, NOT YET.  One of the reasons I believe (aside from incredible talent) that our defense has always been top notch is because of Dick LeBeau.  Sure, he is a awesome coach, but the players love and respect him as well.  I really don't think this is the case with Haley.  I'm not going to judge him on his coaching abilities because I don't know that much about him. But there is a possibility that his personality just doesn't work with the Steeler organization.  I believe that there is a problem between him and the players -- more than just Ben and AB.  Yes, we have had dry spells, I've lived long enough to witness them.  I just don't remember (and I could be wrong) so much brouhaha between a coach and players.

Gingerchip wrote:

I agree, NOT YET.  One of the reasons I believe (aside from incredible talent) that our defense has always been top notch is because of Dick LeBeau.  Sure, he is a awesome coach, but the players love and respect him as well.  I really don't think this is the case with Haley.  I'm not going to judge him on his coaching abilities because I don't know that much about him. But there is a possibility that his personality just doesn't work with the Steeler organization.  I believe that there is a problem between him and the players -- more than just Ben and AB.  Yes, we have had dry spells, I've lived long enough to witness them.  I just don't remember (and I could be wrong) so much brouhaha between a coach and players.

If I had the time and/or ambition, I'd dig up some posts I made before last season started when I was concerned about what I was seeing between Ben and Haley. I'm not foolish enough to suggest that everything I said at the time was spot-on, but there's no denying that what I predicted could happen, based on what I was seeing, is happening.

I'm not ready to make any judgments on Haley's future. I first want to see how the team responds going forward. One thing I absolutely loved about last night's game is that I didn't see an ounce of quit in that team. That's a positive sign.

I remember those posts well, Wally. I'm not giving up yet, but it is getting more difficult to hang on to hope.

Here's the thing.. Yes, the Steelers have had losing seasons. I'm ok with that. Can't be a contender every year. But honestly, I don't ever remember them looking so discombobulated on the field.

Gingerchip wrote:

I remember those posts well, Wally.  I'm not giving up yet, but it is getting more difficult to hang on to hope.

Here's the thing..  Yes, the Steelers have had losing seasons.  I'm ok with that.  Can't be a contender every year.  But honestly, I don't ever remember them looking so discombobulated on the field.

I'm usually the last person to be overly optimistic. If anything, I lean toward pessimism more often than I like. But I find myself being really optimistic about this team. Sure, there's a lot to be disgusted with when you're 0-3, but here's how I see it ...

I watched a lot of the Browns game yesterday. Yeah, they won, but I didn't get the sense that they were anything other than a losing team that found a way to win a game. Even in victory, you don't watch the Browns and think: "Yeah, I can see this team making the playoffs."

On the other hand, watching the Steelers, I don't get the sense that this team is really that bad. We know they have the talent. It's just a matter of getting everything to start clicking. Other than the O-line (which is always a disaster) every problem I see is fixable. I saw a lot of improvement from the first two games. If you take away Ben's turnovers last night, we probably win the game. They played well but were killed by the turnovers. If we take away the turnovers, I like what I saw last night. Things are starting to click. This team will start winning games, and we just have to hope that they didn't dig themselves a hole too deep to climb out of.

Wallace108 wrote:

Gingerchip wrote:

I remember those posts well, Wally.  I'm not giving up yet, but it is getting more difficult to hang on to hope.

Here's the thing..  Yes, the Steelers have had losing seasons.  I'm ok with that.  Can't be a contender every year.  But honestly, I don't ever remember them looking so discombobulated on the field.

I'm usually the last person to be overly optimistic. If anything, I lean toward pessimism more often than I like. But I find myself being really optimistic about this team. Sure, there's a lot to be disgusted with when you're 0-3, but here's how I see it ...

I watched a lot of the Browns game yesterday. Yeah, they won, but I didn't get the sense that they were anything other than a losing team that found a way to win a game. Even in victory, you don't watch the Browns and think: "Yeah, I can see this team making the playoffs."

On the other hand, watching the Steelers, I don't get the sense that this team is really that bad. We know they have the talent. It's just a matter of getting everything to start clicking. Other than the O-line (which is always a disaster) every problem I see is fixable. I saw a lot of improvement from the first two games. If you take away Ben's turnovers last night, we probably win the game. They played well but were killed by the turnovers. If we take away the turnovers, I like what I saw last night. Things are starting to click. This team will start winning games, and we just have to hope that they didn't dig themselves a hole too deep to climb out of.

Good teams find a way to win, bad teams find a way to lose and we are a bad team. Until Colbert fixes the O-line this is going to continue. I say Colbert because he hires the scouts and has final say as to who is drafted. It's the coaches job to build a team with players provided. Unfortunately you can't polish a turd and this OL is just that. Tomlin should be commended for keeping those guys in the game last night after falling behind early.

supytalpeht wrote:

Good teams find a way to win, bad teams find a way to lose and we are a bad team. Until Colbert fixes the O-line this is going to continue. I say Colbert because he hires the scouts and has final say as to who is drafted. It's the coaches job to build a team with players provided. Unfortunately you can't polish a turd and this OL is just that.  Tomlin should be commended for keeping those guys in the game last night after falling behind early.

I understand what you're saying supy, but I see it a bit differently. If this was the first year that the O-line sucked, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But the O-line has been a disaster for a long time. We almost come to expect it. Ben won a Super Bowl playing behind a weak O-line, and they've had a lot of success with the players drafted in the Colbert era. I don't think the problem is with talent, but with execution. And maybe coaching at this point in time. I could be wrong of course, but I really believe that this team is going to turn it around. The only question I have is whether they can do it in time to make a playoff run. I don't think they can afford to lose more than 2, maybe 3, more games.

Wallace108 wrote:

supytalpeht wrote:

Good teams find a way to win, bad teams find a way to lose and we are a bad team. Until Colbert fixes the O-line this is going to continue. I say Colbert because he hires the scouts and has final say as to who is drafted. It's the coaches job to build a team with players provided. Unfortunately you can't polish a turd and this OL is just that.  Tomlin should be commended for keeping those guys in the game last night after falling behind early.

I understand what you're saying supy, but I see it a bit differently. If this was the first year that the O-line sucked, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But the O-line has been a disaster for a long time. We almost come to expect it. Ben won a Super Bowl playing behind a weak O-line, and they've had a lot of success with the players drafted in the Colbert era. I don't think the problem is with talent, but with execution. And maybe coaching at this point in time. I could be wrong of course, but I really believe that this team is going to turn it around. The only question I have is whether they can do it in time to make a playoff run. I don't think they can afford to lose more than 2, maybe 3, more games.

I think you're being entirely too optimistic. At best they will beat some of the worst teams on the schedule,get beaten by the better ones.  and "play down" to teams some fans see as lesser competition.  That will put us right around 8-8 or 9-7 delaying a much needed influx of talent. I would almost guarantee that we lose to the Ravens, Pats***, Packers, and Lions at a minimum. Additionally it wouldn't surprise me at all if we got swept by the Ravens, Bengals, and lost one to the Browns.

Some people think the OL just needs time to gel. Well they've had a whole offseason working out together, ota, minicamp, training camp, 4 preseason games, and 3 regular season games to do so. In case you haven't noticed there isn't a whole lot of coagulating going on. Now they're rotating in Beachum at tackle? Good lord what a cluster @#$%.

Our OL was a disaster back then, but Arians ran an offense that catered to Ben's strengths. Arians came in sat down with Ben and they developed a playbook together and it worked. Haley came in and said here it is deal with it. For crying out loud our $100,000,000 franchise qb can't even use an audible. There was an interview with Arians a few years ago where he talks about almost ruining a QB at Ole Miss(?) by trying to make him into something he wasn't. That is exactly what Art2/Haley are doing with Ben now. Ben is never going to be a Manning or Brady type of QB. He's a gunslinger and needs to be utilized like one. IF they want to continue down that path then they might as well trade Ben and take their chances with Gradkowski and Jones. If nothing else they would get a few solid draft picks for him and open up a bunch of cap space.


/edit

I've said this before, but might as well do so again. I honestly believe Ben would be a better QB today if he hadn't played his rookie year. Yes, we went 15-1 blah blah blah I'm talking big picture. If he had spent that year learning, film work, reading defenses etc we would be better off now. There are interviews out there where ben admits to running around because he didn't know the playbook, reads etc. He succeeded largely due to his athleticism. Now he's a 31 year old QB that has suffered countless injuries and 350+ sacks and his physical attributes are diminishing. That's just a simple fact of life.

supytalpeht wrote:

I think you're being entirely too optimistic.

Perhaps. And trust me, this is a new role for me ... being optimistic while most everyone else is pessimistic.

supytalpeht wrote:

I would almost guarantee that we lose to the Ravens, Pats****, Packers, and Lions at a minimum. Additionally it wouldn't surprise me at all if we got swept by the Ravens, Bengals, and lost one to the Browns.

The Patriots* aren't the same team they've been for the past decade, and the Packers aren't the same team they were a few years ago. I'm certainly not guaranteeing a victory against them, but I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that we lose either. I'm also not sold on the Ravens, Bengals, and, of course, the Browns. We hung in with the Bengals despite very little offense. If our offense could have moved the ball and scored against Cincy the way they did against the Bears (minus the turnovers), they likely would have beaten the Bengals. Despite being 0-3 and playing poorly, teams aren't coming in and demolishing us. Once things start clicking, there isn't a team in the league we can't beat. There's that optimism again.  

supytalpeht wrote:

Some people think the OL just needs time to gel. Well they've had a whole offseason working out together, ota, minicamp, training camp, 4 preseason games, and 3 regular season games to do so. In case you haven't noticed there isn't a whole lot of coagulating going on. Now they're rotating in Beachum at tackle? Good lord what a cluster @#$%.

You'll get no argument from me on the O-line. I have no faith that the line can progress any further than just "good enough to not get Ben killed." But that doesn't worry me because it's been that way for a long time, so it's nothing new, and we've had success with poor O-lines in the past.

supytalpeht wrote:

Our OL was a disaster back then, but Arians ran an offense that catered to Ben's strengths. Arians came in sat down with Ben and they developed a playbook together and it worked. Haley came in and said here it is deal with it. For crying out loud our $100,000,000 franchise qb can't even use an audible. There was an interview with Arians a few years ago where he talks about almost ruining a QB at Ole Miss(?) by trying to make him into something he wasn't. That is exactly what Art2/Haley are doing with Ben now. Ben is never going to be a Manning or Brady type of QB. He's a gunslinger and needs to be utilized like one. IF they want to continue down that path then they might as well trade Ben and take their chances with Gradkowski and Jones. If nothing else they would get a few solid draft picks for him and open up a bunch of cap space.

You and I have had our share of disagreements and debates over Arians, and I don't see the need to rehash them. But I will address this part of your comment: For crying out loud our $100,000,000 franchise qb can't even use an audible.

When that came out, it surprisingly faded away rather quickly with no explanation. My guess (and that's all it is) is that it stems from the Raiders game last season when Ben started going off script and pulling plays from the old playbook. Under that scenario, I can understand Haley trying to rein him in. It's hard to be too critical, one way or the other, without knowing exactly what was behind Haley's strategy.

supytalpeht wrote:

I've said this before, but might as well do so again. I honestly believe Ben would be a better QB today if he hadn't played his rookie year. Yes, we went 15-1 blah blah blah I'm talking big picture. If he had spent that year learning, film work, reading defenses etc we would be better off now. There are interviews out there where ben admits to running around because he didn't know the playbook, reads etc. He succeeded largely due to his athleticism. Now he's a 31 year old QB that has suffered countless injuries and 350+ sacks and his physical attributes are diminishing. That's just a simple fact of life.

I don't disagree. As good as Ben is, I've always felt that he could be better. But he has always relied on his physical attributes at the expense of playing smarter. And that's why Haley was brought in ... to get him to play smarter.

At the end of the day, we probably agree more than we disagree on everything that's wrong with the team. Where we really disagree is whether they can turn it around. You very well could end up being right, but for now, I'm holding on to my optimism.