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 Will Big Ben ever be considered great?

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Wallace108

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PostSubject: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 11:54 am

VIDEO: http://www.nfl.com/videos/pittsburgh-steelers/0ap1000000079311/Double-Coverage-Will-Big-Ben-ever-be-considered-great
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Steve Wyche and Mark Kriegel suggest that Ben won't be considered a great quarterback while he's still playing. They say he'll get his due after he retires. I think there's some truth to that, but I don't blame Ben. As good as Ben is, I think he could have been even better at this point in his career. I seriously think Arians stunted Ben's development. Ben was still learning how to be a pro quarterback when Arians took over as OC, and Arians never helped him evolve. Rather than teaching him skills to be more effective, Arians allowed Ben to be Ben and to continue doing what he was already good at.

The problem is that Ben was a good quarterback, but not great. And I don't consider Ben a great QB because he won 2 Super Bowls. That means nothing. In a team sport, you can't always measure individual success based on championships. By that standard, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Dan Marino. Taking off my Black and Gold glasses and looking at it objectively, Ben has always been a good QB, but not great. But now that Arians is gone, Ben has a chance to elevate his game and become a great QB under Haley. We're already starting to see the progression in just the first four games of this season. Of course it's early, but I'm already starting to hear Ben's name mentioned in MVP talk. When was the last time you remember Ben's name coming up in MVP talk?

Arians held Ben back and kept him from becoming the QB he was capable of becoming. Based on what I'm seeing now, however, I think that in the next few seasons, Ben will become a great quarterback, and his name will finally be mentioned in the same sentence as the other great quarterbacks.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 12:02 pm

I think he'll get there. Already he's the best 3rd down qb in the league.

Sadly I don't think his greatness will be appreciated until after he's gone. And Arians is a dickhead.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 12:03 pm

Mach1 wrote:
I think he'll get there. Already he's the best 3rd down qb in the league.

Sadly I don't think his greatness will be appreciated until after he's gone. And Arians is a dickhead.
That supports what I'm saying. He's been tremendous on third down this season, even in third and long situations. How was he on third down in years' past?

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 12:15 pm

It's obvious that the NFL teams have became more driven toward the passing game. I like what I'm seeing more this year from our beloved Steeler's and that is the controlled run game..(moving the ball and eating the clock). With men like Heath Miller and company the passing game is still intact.

I say Ben will break thru the stigma and will make the "Great QB" list and the doubters can kiss off.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 12:28 pm

of course im bias, a homer and have on black and gold glasses but i think ben already is great!

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 12:31 pm

In my opinion, as long as Haley is here, we'll see him finish his career in Pittsburgh breaking records and enjoying the greatest success of his career, even when he's out of his prime.

He's learning to use the space he has in the pocket, and fire of passes quickly and accurately. At one point, everyone considered Ben's ability to escape the pocket and make plays his greatest attribute, and now he's making the majority of his plays doing the opposite. I think he'll gradually get better over the next few years, and maybe even enjoy a longer career than people once expected, provided he stays healthy.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 12:46 pm

vasteeler wrote:
of course im bias, a homer and have on black and gold glasses but i think ben already is great!
How do you define greatness? As a QB, where do you rank him with Manning, Brady, Rogers, and Brees?

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 12:47 pm

Manning has one Super Bowl. He can have all the passing records he wants, but until he wins another, i'll NEVER think of him as the greatest of all-time. In fact, I like his little brother more as far as that consideration goes.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 12:57 pm

bayz101 wrote:
Manning has one Super Bowl. He can have all the passing records he wants, but until he wins another, i'll NEVER think of him as the greatest of all-time. In fact, I like his little brother more as far as that consideration goes.
So if we're measuring greatness by the number of Super Bowl wins, does that mean that Trent Dilfer was a greater quarterback than Dan Marino?

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 12:59 pm

Wallace108 wrote:
vasteeler wrote:
of course im bias, a homer and have on black and gold glasses but i think ben already is great!
How do you define greatness? As a QB, where do you rank him with Manning, Brady, Rogers, and Brees?

that difficult for me to answer. if either one of those guys had to play behind our o-line for the last 4-5 years i dont think they would have done as well as ben has. certainly manning nor brady would have held up

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 1:01 pm

bayz101 wrote:
Manning has one Super Bowl. He can have all the passing records he wants, but until he wins another, i'll NEVER think of him as the greatest of all-time. In fact, I like his little brother more as far as that consideration goes.


i have to disagree with this. imo manning is the best QB i have ever seen play the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 1:05 pm

vasteeler wrote:
bayz101 wrote:
Manning has one Super Bowl. He can have all the passing records he wants, but until he wins another, i'll NEVER think of him as the greatest of all-time. In fact, I like his little brother more as far as that consideration goes.


i have to disagree with this. imo manning is the best QB i have ever seen play the game.

I think I just puked a little! Ug!!....to each their own I guess.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 1:06 pm

Wallace108 wrote:
bayz101 wrote:
Manning has one Super Bowl. He can have all the passing records he wants, but until he wins another, i'll NEVER think of him as the greatest of all-time. In fact, I like his little brother more as far as that consideration goes.
So if we're measuring greatness by the number of Super Bowl wins, does that mean that Trent Dilfer was a greater quarterback than Dan Marino?

If you want to be mentioned in talks of the Greatest QB of All-Time, you need to have SB's. Marino didn't win one, and although he was an exceptional QB, I wouldn't mention him in that discussion. Dilfer? If you're not a talented passer, do NOT pass go, and do not collect $200. Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  1797695198

I kid, I kid. One Super Bowl ring isn't really what get's you in the discussion, in my opinion, it's multiple wins. Terry Bradshaw may not have had the best stats, in fact, Ben should pass him tonight. However, I think he deserves to be in that discussion.

If you can win multiple Super Bowl rings, you BELONG in that discussion.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 1:07 pm

Manning is one of the best passers ever to play, but I think he needs to win another Super Bowl before I think of him as one of the greatest QUARTERBACKS in the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 1:10 pm

vasteeler wrote:
that difficult for me to answer. if either one of those guys had to play behind our o-line for the last 4-5 years i dont think they would have done as well as ben has. certainly manning nor brady would have held up
True. But look how well Ben is playing behind that same O-line this season. It's the same line, yet Ben is off to the best start of his career and people are already talking about him as an MVP candidate. Do you remember the arguments I was making last season ... that the O-line isn't as bad as we think? I never suggested that it was a great line, or even a good line necessarily, but it was so bad because Arians put them in a position to fail. We had a line that was built more for running the ball. And Arians was asking them to pass protect for 5, 6, 7 seconds every play. My argument is that not only did Arians put the line in a position to fail, but he kept Ben from realizing his potential.

As Steelers fans, we're able to look at QBs like Manning, Rogers, and Brees and say, "Yeah, they're great quarterbacks." Not too many fans of other teams say the same thing about Ben.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 1:13 pm

bayz101 wrote:
Wallace108 wrote:
bayz101 wrote:
Manning has one Super Bowl. He can have all the passing records he wants, but until he wins another, i'll NEVER think of him as the greatest of all-time. In fact, I like his little brother more as far as that consideration goes.
So if we're measuring greatness by the number of Super Bowl wins, does that mean that Trent Dilfer was a greater quarterback than Dan Marino?

If you want to be mentioned in talks of the Greatest QB of All-Time, you need to have SB's. Marino didn't win one, and although he was an exceptional QB, I wouldn't mention him in that discussion. Dilfer? If you're not a talented passer, do NOT pass go, and do not collect $200. Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  1797695198

I kid, I kid. One Super Bowl ring isn't really what get's you in the discussion, in my opinion, it's multiple wins. Terry Bradshaw may not have had the best stats, in fact, Ben should pass him tonight. However, I think he deserves to be in that discussion.

If you can win multiple Super Bowl rings, you BELONG in that discussion.

Bradshaw has 4 Super Bowls. Archie Manning has 0. Hypothetical ... put Bradshaw on the Saints and put Manning on the Steelers. Do you think Bradshaw would still have 4 Super Bowls? And would Manning still have 0 playing with the great 70s Steelers teams?

If we're talking about an individual sport like tennis or boxing, you can measure greatness by championships. But in team sports, you can't measure greatness by championships. Some of the greatest running backs in the history of the NFL (Barry Sanders, for example) never won a Super Bowl. Does that take away from their greatness?

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 1:21 pm

Wallace108 wrote:
vasteeler wrote:
that difficult for me to answer. if either one of those guys had to play behind our o-line for the last 4-5 years i dont think they would have done as well as ben has. certainly manning nor brady would have held up
True. But look how well Ben is playing behind that same O-line this season. It's the same line, yet Ben is off to the best start of his career and people are already talking about him as an MVP candidate. Do you remember the arguments I was making last season ... that the O-line isn't as bad as we think? I never suggested that it was a great line, or even a good line necessarily, but it was so bad because Arians put them in a position to fail. We had a line that was built more for running the ball. And Arians was asking them to pass protect for 5, 6, 7 seconds every play. My argument is that not only did Arians put the line in a position to fail, but he kept Ben from realizing his potential.

As Steelers fans, we're able to look at QBs like Manning, Rogers, and Brees and say, "Yeah, they're great quarterbacks." Not too many fans of other teams say the same thing about Ben.

i certainly cant argue with any of that

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 2:11 pm

Wow I'm a little late to the game but this subject is a dandy!!!

1st of all I think of Ben as one of the Greats already, but not without flaws so I can see where Wallie 108 is coming from.

Have any of you ever noticed that when Ben passes the ball a lot of times he's not exactly on the mark??? By that I mean sometimes his receivers can make him look good and sometimes they don't. Just a random thing I saw from last weeks game. Check it out and let me know if I'm off my rocker or not.

Ok Greatness can be messured so many different ways it's very very subjective. In this vain I will try to explain what makes a QB great in my mind and why I consider Ben already Great but room to get better. I quoted Emperor Chaz quite abit so let me start with something I always admired in his philosphy. "You have never arrived". No matter how good you are there is always something you can do better. Mean Joe stated that he may have been in the zone once and he was by all means of the words Great.

Ok so another thing I love to say is that what makes Ben Great is also his achilies heel. He HOLDS ON TO THE BALL!!! I love it when he does for one simple reason it takes it's toll on the defense. It is also what gets the o-line in trouble so that's not a good thing. This may very well be what shortens Ben's career but I have to be honest here I love it!!! So many Great plays have taken place when Ben holds onto the ball and scrambles around the field.

Ben's 1st year he was more special than I think many people realized. Yes the team carried him for a while, but later in the year Ben began to take shape. The game in particular that sticks in my mind was against the cowboys. In typical Ben fashion late in the game we needed a touchdown to take the lead. Ben lead us down the field and wouldn't you know it we won the game. Ben's late game heroics is 2nd to none not even little eli manning.

Now Wallie you do make a very good point. I can see what you mean about B.A. holding Ben's growth back by letting Ben be Ben. I do love that Haley is getting him to throw the ball a little quicker and to feel more comfortable in the pocket. This can only add to the true effectiveness of an already Great QB. It will also help his o-line since they won't have to block forever and a day every time Ben drops back. It goes back to there is always something you can do to get better. Can't wait to see Ben getting better as he works with Haley...as long as they are getting along that is.

My knock on peyton is that he's not clutch, damn good but not clutch. Brady I can't help but wonder if he would have been as good without the cameras. I have always liked what I saw from rodgers his passes are pretty and right on the mark. I'm not sure on Brees don't really watch him much. Will say this much he's a damn good QB...for a short guy.

Here's one from out of left field what do you think of Kenny Anderson??? He was what I would consider an under the radar QB. He was not liked by the media because he came from a small college so you never really heard much about him. Anyway I would say that when it comes to under rated I would say Kenny was one of the most under rated QB's of all time. Interested to hear what anyone else thinks. FYI he once completed 20 of 22 against...the Steel Curtain in '74. Hell of a performance if you ask me.
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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 2:20 pm

Butch wrote:
Wow I'm a little late to the game but this subject is a dandy!!!

1st of all I think of Ben as one of the Greats already, but not without flaws so I can see where Wallie 108 is coming from.

Have any of you ever noticed that when Ben passes the ball a lot of times he's not exactly on the mark??? By that I mean sometimes his receivers can make him look good and sometimes they don't. Just a random thing I saw from last weeks game. Check it out and let me know if I'm off my rocker or not.

Ok Greatness can be messured so many different ways it's very very subjective. In this vain I will try to explain what makes a QB great in my mind and why I consider Ben already Great but room to get better. I quoted Emperor Chaz quite abit so let me start with something I always admired in his philosphy. "You have never arrived". No matter how good you are there is always something you can do better. Mean Joe stated that he may have been in the zone once and he was by all means of the words Great.

Ok so another thing I love to say is that what makes Ben Great is also his achilies heel. He HOLDS ON TO THE BALL!!! I love it when he does for one simple reason it takes it's toll on the defense. It is also what gets the o-line in trouble so that's not a good thing. This may very well be what shortens Ben's career but I have to be honest here I love it!!! So many Great plays have taken place when Ben holds onto the ball and scrambles around the field.

Ben's 1st year he was more special than I think many people realized. Yes the team carried him for a while, but later in the year Ben began to take shape. The game in particular that sticks in my mind was against the cowboys. In typical Ben fashion late in the game we needed a touchdown to take the lead. Ben lead us down the field and wouldn't you know it we won the game. Ben's late game heroics is 2nd to none not even little eli manning.

Now Wallie you do make a very good point. I can see what you mean about B.A. holding Ben's growth back by letting Ben be Ben. I do love that Haley is getting him to throw the ball a little quicker and to feel more comfortable in the pocket. This can only add to the true effectiveness of an already Great QB. It will also help his o-line since they won't have to block forever and a day every time Ben drops back. It goes back to there is always something you can do to get better. Can't wait to see Ben getting better as he works with Haley...as long as they are getting along that is.

My knock on peyton is that he's not clutch, damn good but not clutch. Brady I can't help but wonder if he would have been as good without the cameras. I have always liked what I saw from rodgers his passes are pretty and right on the mark. I'm not sure on Brees don't really watch him much. Will say this much he's a damn good QB...for a short guy.

Here's one from out of left field what do you think of Kenny Anderson??? He was what I would consider an under the radar QB. He was not liked by the media because he came from a small college so you never really heard much about him. Anyway I would say that when it comes to under rated I would say Kenny was one of the most under rated QB's of all time. Interested to hear what anyone else thinks. FYI he once completed 20 of 22 against...the Steel Curtain in '74. Hell of a performance if you ask me.

Good reading and I noted some points you made. Heck I will be the first to give you a rep point!

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 2:24 pm

Great response, Butch. I'll address your post when I have more time, but I want to touch on a couple things real quick. First, I agree that it's hard to determine greatness when we can't even define it. You're right, it's subjective. That's what makes it a fun debate. If it wasn't subjective, we could easily point to characteristics A, B, and C, and say without question who is great and who isn't.

Butch wrote:
Here's one from out of left field what do you think of Kenny Anderson???
I didn't get to watch Anderson play much. I was young when he was at the end of his career. But from what I remember, he was one of the best at the time. And the fact that he didn't win a Super Bowl helps my point. If the Bengals defense would have been able to stop Montana and the 49ers offense, Ken Anderson would have a Super Bowl win. Anderson and the Bengals offense did everything to win the game, but the defense couldn't stop Montana. While the win added to Montana's greatness, I don't think the loss should take away from Anderson's greatness.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 2:26 pm

Butch wrote:
Wow I'm a little late to the game but this subject is a dandy!!!

1st of all I think of Ben as one of the Greats already, but not without flaws so I can see where Wallie 108 is coming from.

Have any of you ever noticed that when Ben passes the ball a lot of times he's not exactly on the mark??? By that I mean sometimes his receivers can make him look good and sometimes they don't. Just a random thing I saw from last weeks game. Check it out and let me know if I'm off my rocker or not.

Ok Greatness can be messured so many different ways it's very very subjective. In this vain I will try to explain what makes a QB great in my mind and why I consider Ben already Great but room to get better. I quoted Emperor Chaz quite abit so let me start with something I always admired in his philosphy. "You have never arrived". No matter how good you are there is always something you can do better. Mean Joe stated that he may have been in the zone once and he was by all means of the words Great.

Ok so another thing I love to say is that what makes Ben Great is also his achilies heel. He HOLDS ON TO THE BALL!!! I love it when he does for one simple reason it takes it's toll on the defense. It is also what gets the o-line in trouble so that's not a good thing. This may very well be what shortens Ben's career but I have to be honest here I love it!!! So many Great plays have taken place when Ben holds onto the ball and scrambles around the field.

Ben's 1st year he was more special than I think many people realized. Yes the team carried him for a while, but later in the year Ben began to take shape. The game in particular that sticks in my mind was against the cowboys. In typical Ben fashion late in the game we needed a touchdown to take the lead. Ben lead us down the field and wouldn't you know it we won the game. Ben's late game heroics is 2nd to none not even little eli manning.

Now Wallie you do make a very good point. I can see what you mean about B.A. holding Ben's growth back by letting Ben be Ben. I do love that Haley is getting him to throw the ball a little quicker and to feel more comfortable in the pocket. This can only add to the true effectiveness of an already Great QB. It will also help his o-line since they won't have to block forever and a day every time Ben drops back. It goes back to there is always something you can do to get better. Can't wait to see Ben getting better as he works with Haley...as long as they are getting along that is.

My knock on peyton is that he's not clutch, damn good but not clutch. Brady I can't help but wonder if he would have been as good without the cameras. I have always liked what I saw from rodgers his passes are pretty and right on the mark. I'm not sure on Brees don't really watch him much. Will say this much he's a damn good QB...for a short guy.

Here's one from out of left field what do you think of Kenny Anderson??? He was what I would consider an under the radar QB. He was not liked by the media because he came from a small college so you never really heard much about him. Anyway I would say that when it comes to under rated I would say Kenny was one of the most under rated QB's of all time. Interested to hear what anyone else thinks. FYI he once completed 20 of 22 against...the Steel Curtain in '74. Hell of a performance if you ask me.

Excellent post. I agree with everything, and you know whats funny? Ben hasn't been holding onto the ball as much lately. You know why? The gameplan encourages him to dump it off for some easy yards. In fact, i'll notice him look for the dump-off often times, and when it's not there, he'll THEN proceed to MAKE something happen, and it WORKS more than it fails.

There'll come a time where Ben won't be able to extend plays as well, but he'll get better as a pocket passer over the next few years now that he's doing it more, and I think it'll extend his career a little, as long as he stays healthy.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 2:27 pm

I'll talk a little more about Kenny Anderson in a bit. I've watched a lot of him thanks to Steve Sabol.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 3:56 pm

Thanks for the 1st rep points Kornbread!!! and I'm glad ya'll enjoyed the rather long read. Guess I had quite a bit to say. LOL

Gotta say Wallie 108 you came up with quite a topic so props for coming up with a pretty excellent topic.

Now you younguns missed out on some great football back in the day let me tell ya' bout it. LOL. Wait gotta find where I put those gosh darn glasses.

All kidding aside yes I do think Kenny was a great football player, and part of the reason I brought him up was to show you another example of someone who could play the game but still not win.

That being said there are also QB's who in MHO have under achieved. Rivers comes to mind right off the bat and while many will disagree with me I think peyton falls into this category as well. The knock on peyton coming out of college was he couldn't win the big one and as we speak he's only one 1. At the end of his career I know he will make it into the hall but still I can't quite put him in the same class as Joe or Terry. I would dare to rank him under roger staubach. I know I'm in the minority but it is what it is.

Now Ben took a so so team in his 1st year and took them to the championship game. I wish the playing field had been even but the cheats robbed me of that. I'm not sure Ben would have won even if it was level but we will never really know. In his 2nd year he took us all the way. Yes he played like crap and if that had been his only Superbowl I'm not sure we would even be discussing this right now. He played lights out getting us there so I can forgive him for his lackluster game. So in his first 2 seasons with us Ben took us from an also run to a consistent contender. The '07 season was to me one of the best ever to be a Steeler fan. How many times did Ben fail during the game just to will the team to victory in the closing minutes??? The superbowl was very much a mirror of what the entire season was like for us. An offense that did just enough until crunch time then 2 minute drill and down the field we would go!!! Yes I'm a homer and a Huge Big Ben supporter, but these are the reasons I love Ben.
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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 4:14 pm

Here's something to consider. Kordell took us to 2 AFC championship games. He's possibly one bad throw and a Patriots** asterisk away from having a chance at being a 2-time Super Bowl champion. If we measure greatness by championships, that's the margin of error between a QB we consider great and a QB we couldn't run out of town fast enough.

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PostSubject: Re: Will Big Ben ever be considered great?    Will Big Ben ever be considered great?  EmptyThu Oct 11, 2012 6:10 pm

I'll see your Anderson and raise you a Fouts.

I always liked watching the chargers back with fouts, fun to watch.

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