had vick not been injured...

SteelCityUnderground wrote:

You're not going to justify playing someone who has never taken a snap over a guy that's been in the league since 2001.

what you can't justify is not benching a guy who has 6 yards passing after over 2 quarters . how many INT's would vick have to his credit so far if those db's had caught the balls he put in their hands ? ...7 ? ... 8 ?..

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

SteelCityUnderground wrote:

You're not going to justify playing someone who has never taken a snap over a guy that's been in the league since 2001.

what you can't justify is not benching a guy who has 6 yards passing after over 2 quarters . how many INT's would vick have to his credit so far if those db's had caught the balls he put in their hands ? ...7 ? ... 8 ?..

Oh I'm not disagreeing with you there. I was just trying to think of some form of logic as to why Vick was the backup over Landry in the first place. I would've sat Vick's ass after he left for the "dirt in the eye" thing. Perfect excuse. Heck, with the way this team sat Cortez Allen mysteriously last season, I wouldn't put the Vick hamstring off as an excuse either!

Hard to believe that if Ben would be in uniform he would not start this week

But since Vick has decided to share his hamstring MRI with NFL Media (WTF?) it is clear he is taking himself off the field for Sunday and Ben is the only QB behind Jones

I still maintain Ben sits this Sunday - sign some crash dummy as the backup QB for the week and concede the game if Jones gets hurt

DesertSteel wrote:

Worse yet... if Ben isn't ready for KC and Tomlin starts Vick, I will completely lose it and question Tomlin's sanity.

Can't see Tomlin starting Vick over Jones. I mean Tomlin couldn't be that stupid.

I like Ben dressing and coming in for a few snaps possibly and as a emergency in case L.J. gets hurt, DONE!

The consensus is, if you dress Ben, then you admit he can play and you don't start LJ. What a conundrum!

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

i can't wrap my head around keeping a guy on the roster for 3 years that can't show enough to the coaches to move up to the number 2 spot.  especially a guy you felt was good enough to pick in the 4th round.  if you're that unsure about the guy that, not once, but twice, you went out and found a number two , then why did keep him on the roster ?

Oklahoma doesn't run a pro style offense. Jones was not going to come in and be the #2 guy in year 1, or year 2. This year he showed he was making progress, but still wasn't better than Gradkowski, so no big deal since they carry 3 QB's.

I think he will still miss throws until he gets consistent in his mechanics. He's a better passer than all the haters think. Vick was a veteran with NFL experience and Jones is that guy that cant get experience until somebody gives him a chance. I'm just happy that he got his chance and silenced some of the haters...although the first INT he throws , the pitchforks will be out again.

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

i can't wrap my head around keeping a guy on the roster for 3 years that can't show enough to the coaches to move up to the number 2 spot.  especially a guy you felt was good enough to pick in the 4th round.  if you're that unsure about the guy that, not once, but twice, you went out and found a number two , then why did keep him on the roster ?

Oklahoma doesn't run a pro style offense.  Jones was not going to come in and be the #2 guy in year 1, or year 2.  This year he showed he was making progress, but still wasn't better than Gradkowski, so no big deal since they carry 3 QB's.

I think he will still miss throws until he gets consistent in his mechanics.  He's a better passer than all the haters think.  Vick was a veteran with NFL experience and Jones is that guy that cant get experience until somebody gives him a chance.  I'm just happy that he got his chance and silenced some of the haters...although the first INT he throws , the pitchforks will be out again.

Nobody hates Jones but from reading your opinion of Vick you appear to be a Vick hater. Vick went as far as Haley would let him go with the limited experience he had with our system. There is a reason why Jones hasn't seen the field much in 3 years but I hope he can manage the game until Ben returns.

zcoop wrote:

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

i can't wrap my head around keeping a guy on the roster for 3 years that can't show enough to the coaches to move up to the number 2 spot.  especially a guy you felt was good enough to pick in the 4th round.  if you're that unsure about the guy that, not once, but twice, you went out and found a number two , then why did keep him on the roster ?

Oklahoma doesn't run a pro style offense.  Jones was not going to come in and be the #2 guy in year 1, or year 2.  This year he showed he was making progress, but still wasn't better than Gradkowski, so no big deal since they carry 3 QB's.

I think he will still miss throws until he gets consistent in his mechanics.  He's a better passer than all the haters think.  Vick was a veteran with NFL experience and Jones is that guy that cant get experience until somebody gives him a chance.  I'm just happy that he got his chance and silenced some of the haters...although the first INT he throws , the pitchforks will be out again.

Nobody hates Jones but from reading your opinion of Vick you appear to be a Vick hater. Vick went as far as Haley would let him go with the limited experience he had with our system. There is a reason why Jones hasn't seen the field much in 3 years but I hope he can manage the game until Ben returns.

So many fans have called for Landry Jones to be cut last year, this year and questioned his being on the roster, yet don't recognize his development. I'd say that he had a lot of haters.

You do realize that Mike Vick was the #1 pick of the draft and the first QB taken in the same draft of the 2nd round was Drew Brees. There is a reason that one was starting for the Saints and the other was not on an NFL roster until the Steelers called. I don't hate Mike Vick, I just realize that his career turnovers, completion %, QB rating and inability to read defenses (as referenced by many NFL analysts) are not a good fit for making quick reads in Todd Haley's offense.

Jones hasn't seen the field much in his first 2 seasons....this is year 3 for Landry Jones, mostly because he plays behind a future HOF QB. The fact that so many fans expected Jones to be a franchise QB in waiting in his first 2 seasons in the NFL is frankly unrealistic and delusional.

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

Jones hasn't seen the field much in his first 2 seasons....this is year 3 for Landry Jones, mostly because he plays behind a future HOF QB.  The fact that so many fans expected Jones to be a franchise QB in waiting in his first 2 seasons in the NFL is frankly unrealistic and delusional.

THIS!

I enjoyed watching Jones progress in the preseason. He actually made some of the games watchable, if you're into seeing young guys get an opportunity to do their thing (this is how we first saw glimpses of AB.)

Jones looked much more comfortable out there. He wasn't holding onto the ball too long. He was making reads and even throwing a fairly accurate deep ball. I believe his only pick (maybe he had 2?) was Jesse James bobbling what should've been a catch and essentially fumbling the ball.

In the Arizona game, he did much of the same. Two incompletions, 1 to AB, 1 to Bryant, where back shoulder throws that were put either where the WR could catch it or NO ONE could get it. That's how Ben plays too.

Obviously notable that Jones was releasing the ball quickly in this game, and capable of looking at more than one option. He was also calling audibles at the line, which really blew my mind. All of a sudden, the offense looked familiar.

Vick on the other hand, stares in one direction and still couldn't hit anyone with a decent pass. His strengths, running (which he does after hesitating on his first read) and going deep, were both gone. The one deep throw was picked because it was thrown short, but came back due to an offside penalty, which is about the only heads up play he made all game.

Vick is painful to watch play the QB position. I'm not a hater, but Vick looks like he's playing backyard football just trying to look for one guy to throw to and scrambling when he can't find him.

He is not reading the defense, making adjustments, throwing ahead of his receivers so they can get separation, throwing back shoulder or hell even in stride, he cannot see more than one or two of his options on the field, he is prone to fumbling, he is prone to throwing poor footballs that are easily intercepted, and he looks overall unsure of himself out there.

Landry Jones literally showed the complete opposite of all of that. He is the polar opposite of Vick, which is a god damn beautiful thing.

steelcityboyz wrote:

DesertSteel wrote:

Worse yet... if Ben isn't ready for KC and Tomlin starts Vick, I will completely lose it and question Tomlin's sanity.

Can't see Tomlin starting Vick over Jones. I mean Tomlin couldn't be that stupid.

Yet I would not be surprised if it happened. Jones should have been the #2 with Vick the emergency #3 all along. Hell, I would have brought back Tyler Murphy as the emergency #3 personally.

SteelCityUnderground wrote:

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

Jones hasn't seen the field much in his first 2 seasons....this is year 3 for Landry Jones, mostly because he plays behind a future HOF QB.  The fact that so many fans expected Jones to be a franchise QB in waiting in his first 2 seasons in the NFL is frankly unrealistic and delusional.

THIS!

I enjoyed watching Jones progress in the preseason. He actually made some of the games watchable, if you're into seeing young guys get an opportunity to do their thing (this is how we first saw glimpses of AB.)

Jones looked much more comfortable out there. He wasn't holding onto the ball too long. He was making reads and even throwing a fairly accurate deep ball. I believe his only pick (maybe he had 2?) was Jesse James bobbling what should've been a catch and essentially fumbling the ball.

In the Arizona game, he did much of the same. Two incompletions, 1 to AB, 1 to Bryant, where back shoulder throws that were put either where the WR could catch it or NO ONE could get it. That's how Ben plays too.

Obviously notable that Jones was releasing the ball quickly in this game, and capable of looking at more than one option. He was also calling audibles at the line, which really blew my mind. All of a sudden, the offense looked familiar.

Vick on the other hand, stares in one direction and still couldn't hit anyone with a decent pass. His strengths, running (which he does after hesitating on his first read) and going deep, were both gone. The one deep throw was picked because it was thrown short, but came back due to an offside penalty, which is about the only heads up play he made all game.

The audibles blew my mind as well. It was almost like Ben was telepathically telling Landry what to do. It was awesome.

If he comes out next week and performs like he did this week and throws for 350 yards and 3 td, then what? He is either a very Solid back up or he could be traded to someone who needs a QB and try to shore up our injured offensive line or help improve our secondary.

ImperialFan wrote:

If he comes out next week and performs like he did this week and throws for 350 yards and 3 td, then what? He is either a very Solid back up or he could be traded to someone who needs a QB and try to shore up our injured offensive line or help improve our secondary.

Keep him or trade to recover a draft pick wasted on Scooby.

It would be great to have Jones as a back up, he knows the playbook, hes spent a lot of time with BR7. He may want to go elsewhere to start because he wont be starting here for at least 5 years. Id like it if he stays because well if he played like he did last week I could see someone wanting to pick him up to start. but would he rather be a starter for a shitty team or big bens back up and then maybe even start for 6-7 years after Bens gone.

I completely disagreed with drafting Landry Jones. At the time, the team had many needs, and quarterback wasn't one of them. I also didn't believe he would be a good NFL quarterback.

Those of you that remember me from Steelers Fever may recall my stance at the time. I have been critical of his play, because he repeatedly made mistakes in preseason games. He routinely threw the ball into coverage, threw interceptions, fumbled often, and took sacks. To say otherwise is completely false, or you just don't understand the way the position is played. I based all my criticism on what I saw on the field, nothing personal against the man.

My biggest gripe was using a fourth round pick on a quarterback when Ben was 29 years old. I thought it was a wasted pick because they could have used it to shore up another position at a time when the roster was not that strong.

If Jones does show that he can be an effective player in the league and becomes the #2 quarterback or is traded for draft picks, the pick will have been worth it. I just didn't agree with it at the time.

I just don't understand many fans that demanded he be cut or endlessly said crappy things about the guy, are now singing his praises and accusing others of being haters.

I admit I disagreed with the pick, but I never called him names or insulted him. I evaluated his performance on the field based on what I saw from a football perspective. I also told others that I would be ecstatic if I was wrong about him.......and I still hope that I was.

He looked terrific coming off the bench, and I am happy for him. Let's just see more before we jump to conclusions that he is now a big time player. We don't know that yet....Not even close.

Patience everyone.

pczach wrote:

I just don't understand many fans that demanded he be cut or endlessly said crappy things about the guy, are now singing his praises and accusing others of being haters.

I changed my tune this preseason, because all of the things you said in your full post were true. He looked shell shocked and incapable of playing at this level. This year, he looked fairly solid. Each game he got better, and most of his mistakes were not "his" and because of WRs dropping balls, etc.

I do believe most of the haters are just looking to agree with what's popular. It's why they hate Todd Haley too. You hear them at the bar or even at the game. Many are not educated to understand WTH is going on out there. "Unleash Vick" was a popular saying all week leading up to the Cards game. What does that even mean? A week earlier they wanted Bell to get the rock every time. In short, they go with the way the wind blows.

pczach wrote:

He looked terrific coming off the bench, and I am happy for him. Let's just see more before we jump to conclusions that he is now a big time player. We don't know that yet....Not even close.

Patience everyone.

Totally agree.

Vick's release is so slow and telegraphic it makes Byron leftwich's release looke like Dan marinos.

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

zcoop wrote:

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

i can't wrap my head around keeping a guy on the roster for 3 years that can't show enough to the coaches to move up to the number 2 spot.  especially a guy you felt was good enough to pick in the 4th round.  if you're that unsure about the guy that, not once, but twice, you went out and found a number two , then why did keep him on the roster ?

Oklahoma doesn't run a pro style offense.  Jones was not going to come in and be the #2 guy in year 1, or year 2.  This year he showed he was making progress, but still wasn't better than Gradkowski, so no big deal since they carry 3 QB's.

I think he will still miss throws until he gets consistent in his mechanics.  He's a better passer than all the haters think.  Vick was a veteran with NFL experience and Jones is that guy that cant get experience until somebody gives him a chance.  I'm just happy that he got his chance and silenced some of the haters...although the first INT he throws , the pitchforks will be out again.

Nobody hates Jones but from reading your opinion of Vick you appear to be a Vick hater. Vick went as far as Haley would let him go with the limited experience he had with our system. There is a reason why Jones hasn't seen the field much in 3 years but I hope he can manage the game until Ben returns.

So many fans have called for Landry Jones to be cut last year, this year and questioned his being on the roster, yet don't recognize his development.  I'd say that he had a lot of haters.

You do realize that Mike Vick was the #1 pick of the draft and the first QB taken in the same draft of the 2nd round was Drew Brees.  There is a reason that one was starting for the Saints and the other was not on an NFL roster until the Steelers called.  I don't hate Mike Vick, I just realize that his career turnovers, completion %, QB rating and inability to read defenses (as referenced by many NFL analysts) are not a good fit for making quick reads in Todd Haley's offense.

Jones hasn't seen the field much in his first 2 seasons....this is year 3 for Landry Jones, mostly because he plays behind a future HOF QB.  The fact that so many fans expected Jones to be a franchise QB in waiting in his first 2 seasons in the NFL is frankly unrealistic and delusional.

You conveniently left out the fact that Vick missed two years when he was in his prime. I watched him under Dan Reeves here in Atl and he excelled in that offense. That shit he went to in Philly and NY was nothing to write home about, just look at the QB that have come along in those systems since he left.

BTW, I hear the same delusional talking heads say similar things about Cam Newton, so I'm not surprised by those comments. Also, Ben didn't fair too well in Haley's offense initially if you're honest, you'd have to acknowledge that fact.

Where does this Drew Brees shit fit in our discussion?

Brees was a bust his first couple of years in San Diego. He didn't do good there until he had the pressure of Rivers on the bench behind him. Then his shoulder got jacked up and they let him go.

zcoop wrote:

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

zcoop wrote:

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

i can't wrap my head around keeping a guy on the roster for 3 years that can't show enough to the coaches to move up to the number 2 spot.  especially a guy you felt was good enough to pick in the 4th round.  if you're that unsure about the guy that, not once, but twice, you went out and found a number two , then why did keep him on the roster ?

Oklahoma doesn't run a pro style offense.  Jones was not going to come in and be the #2 guy in year 1, or year 2.  This year he showed he was making progress, but still wasn't better than Gradkowski, so no big deal since they carry 3 QB's.

I think he will still miss throws until he gets consistent in his mechanics.  He's a better passer than all the haters think.  Vick was a veteran with NFL experience and Jones is that guy that cant get experience until somebody gives him a chance.  I'm just happy that he got his chance and silenced some of the haters...although the first INT he throws , the pitchforks will be out again.

Nobody hates Jones but from reading your opinion of Vick you appear to be a Vick hater. Vick went as far as Haley would let him go with the limited experience he had with our system. There is a reason why Jones hasn't seen the field much in 3 years but I hope he can manage the game until Ben returns.

So many fans have called for Landry Jones to be cut last year, this year and questioned his being on the roster, yet don't recognize his development.  I'd say that he had a lot of haters.

You do realize that Mike Vick was the #1 pick of the draft and the first QB taken in the same draft of the 2nd round was Drew Brees.  There is a reason that one was starting for the Saints and the other was not on an NFL roster until the Steelers called.  I don't hate Mike Vick, I just realize that his career turnovers, completion %, QB rating and inability to read defenses (as referenced by many NFL analysts) are not a good fit for making quick reads in Todd Haley's offense.

Jones hasn't seen the field much in his first 2 seasons....this is year 3 for Landry Jones, mostly because he plays behind a future HOF QB.  The fact that so many fans expected Jones to be a franchise QB in waiting in his first 2 seasons in the NFL is frankly unrealistic and delusional.

You conveniently left out the fact that Vick missed two years when he was in his prime. I watched him under Dan Reeves here in Atl and he excelled in that offense. That shit he went to in Philly and NY was nothing to write home about, just look at the QB that have come along in those systems since he left.

BTW, I hear the same delusional talking heads say similar things about Cam Newton, so I'm not surprised by those comments. Also, Ben didn't fair too well in Haley's offense initially if you're honest, you'd have to acknowledge that fact.

Where does this Drew Brees shit fit in our discussion?

I didn't think I needed to let anybody that hasn't lived in a cave, that Mike Vick didn't play football while in prison.

Mike Vick was Bob Griffin (some call RG3), before Bob Griffin got drafted by Washington. Great athlete, but not a guy that was going to recognize defenses, go thru progressions and make plays from the pocket. Somebody that was going to use his legs when the play broke down. Tampa Bay exposed how to defeat Vick, NFL teams do the same with Bob Griffin.

I'm not a Mike Vick hater, nor am I some guy that bought a Vick jersey and cheered for him while in Atlanta. I'm just a guy that recognizes that the vast majority of successful QB's have to play from the pocket to be successful. The most successful scrambling QB's I can think of are Randall Cunningham and Fran Tarkinton.

Drew Brees is the same age as Vick and not washed up like Vick because he has the skills and ability to read defenses, make passes from the pocket, not turn over the football. Landry Jones is a QB, not an athlete and he gives the Steelers a better chance to win than Vick if needed to start, IMO.

steelstoned1972 wrote:

Vick's release is so slow and telegraphic it makes Byron leftwich's release looke like Dan marinos.

That is why Mike Vick has a 56% completion rate for his career.

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

steelstoned1972 wrote:

Vick's release is so slow and telegraphic it makes Byron leftwich's release looke like Dan marinos.

That is why Mike Vick has a 56% completion rate for his career.  

To be fair I think a lot of that is from earlier on in his career when he was much more run focused and way more apt to just tuck it and run. He was very shoddy early on in his career standing in the pocket and trying to go through his reads. He'd been much better with passing in the latter half of his career, but after seeing him these past three games... I think it's time for him to hang up his cleats. He has arm strength, but that's about it. He's been entirely too inaccurate this season, even for being rusty. Not to mention that he just doesn't seem to have a grasp of the offense at all. 3/8 for 6 yards passing in almost three quarters is unheard of. In the words of NBA Great Charles Barkley... It's turrible.

IowaSteeler927 wrote:

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

steelstoned1972 wrote:

Vick's release is so slow and telegraphic it makes Byron leftwich's release looke like Dan marinos.

That is why Mike Vick has a 56% completion rate for his career.  

To be fair I think a lot of that is from earlier on in his career when he was much more run focused and way more apt to just tuck it and run. He was very shoddy early on in his career standing in the pocket and trying to go through his reads. He'd been much better with passing in the latter half of his career, but after seeing him these past three games... I think it's time for him to hang up his cleats. He has arm strength, but that's about it. He's been entirely too inaccurate this season, even for being rusty. Not to mention that he just doesn't seem to have a grasp of the offense at all. 3/8 for 6 yards passing in almost three quarters is unheard of. In the words of NBA Great Charles Barkley... It's turrible.

Yeah, he had 4 seasons where his completion rate was above that 56%, 3 of them in philly. Many believe that when Ben gets back this should likely be Vick's last time under an NFL center.