Is Ben Roethlisberger In The Same Elite Category As Peyton Manning?

Peyton Manning's retired from pro football yesterday amidst one of the greatest careers in NFL history. Now and forever, Manning's name will be in every conversation about the NFL's greatest quarterbacks. Yet, there's one player, that when his name is brought up outside of Pittsburgh (if his name is brought up) is never in that conversation: Ben Roethlisberger.

I'm not going to suggest that Roethlisberger's numbers can even compare with every single season record that Peyton Manning currently holds, or that Ben will ever catch up with those numbers. The offenses these two have played in couldn't be any different. Manning played in a high octane, pass-first offense for almost all of his career. Roethlisberger, leaned on a strong running game for much of his NFL lifespan.

Manning or Roethlisberger?

So when you ask someone in Pittsburgh who you'd rather have, Manning or Roethlisberger, why is it that fans choose Big Ben?

Part of it is certainly bias. We're Steelers fans and we're never going to choose an outsider of one of our own. But looking at the larger picture, Ben's numbers, when taking averages and percentages, aren't far off of Manning's. In fact, most Steeler fans that understand this, get riled up when Roethlisberger isn't mentioned in the same breath as a future first ballot Hall of Famer.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have an emotional disconnect with fans who still felt Peyton Manning was Peyton Manning. The sentiment could be felt after DeAngelo's Williams' comments about Manning's last season being "garbage."

But Williams makes a great point. Consider both Peyton and Ben had an injury-plagued 2015, and see who produced better on the field:

http://www.steelcityunderground.com/2016/03/08/is-ben-roethlisberger-in-the-same-elite-category-as-peyton-manning/

This New York Times columnist does not think Ben is even in the same elite category as other QBs drafted in 2004

Peyton Manning is the pillar of an enduring, golden era of professional quarterbacks, which will end over the next few years when we see the retirements of Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Philip Rivers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/08/sports/football/peyton-manning-retirement-denver-broncos.html?ref=sports

The continuing infatuation of sportswriters for Rivers has gone from puzzling to laughable

Peyton Manning is an all time great and Big Ben is one of the greatest of his Era.

I wouldn't take any QB over Big Ben but with Manning, we are talking about the second best QB of all time (Brady #1).

Unlike the other major sports, you have to factor in regular season stats and regular season wins. Otherwise you would say Trent Dilfer had a better career then Dan Marino.

When Ben retires his stats will be great, we hope he has 3 or 4 titles but no one will question whether he was the greatest of all time. With Manning they are and rightfully so.

I compare Big Ben to John Elway. Both were big, strong armed, tough, elusive QBS who early in their career weren't big stat guys but as they got older they threw more and their stats increased. John Elway was by far the best physically gifted QB I ever saw.

Manning is on the Mt Rushmore of QBs. Big Ben, unless he wins 4 Super Bowls minimum, will not be.

The majority of football fans bandwagon and choose like 4-5 "favorite teams" a year, who cares what sort of opinions they develop with the minimum amount of attention they put in.

You know who else wasn't a good QB at all? The guy who called his on plays, didnt deflate any balls, and didnt pick up every blitz with a wealth of footage on other teams hand signals for play calls, winning 4 superbowls in 6 years.

I'm not saying Brady isnt damn good. But put any QB on the Patriots* in the shitty AFC east with a ruthless genius of a coach who will add any advantage (as if the AFC east in the last 12 years wasnt advantage enough), and they'd come away with 4 or maybe more.

Put Phillip Rivers, Drew Brees, Bruce Gradkowski, or Ryan Fitzpatrick in the exact same scenario. All four end with the greatest QB to ever play the game.

KeepHarrisonTilHes92 wrote:

The majority of football fans bandwagon and choose like 4-5 "favorite teams" a year, who cares what sort of opinions they develop with the minimum amount of attention they put in.

You know who else wasn't a good QB at all? The guy who called his on plays, didnt deflate any balls, and didnt pick up every blitz with a wealth of footage on other teams hand signals for play calls, winning 4 superbowls in 6 years.

I'm not saying Brady isnt damn good. But put any QB on the Patriots** in the shitty AFC east with a ruthless genius of a coach who will add any advantage (as if the AFC east in the last 12 years wasnt advantage enough), and they'd come away with 4 or maybe more.

Put Phillip Rivers, Drew Brees, Bruce Gradkowski, or Ryan Fitzpatrick in the exact same scenario. All four end with the greatest QB to ever play the game.

\

agreed, and I use to discount the cheating myself, until deflategate. At this point, I don't put Brady in the conversation of top QBs; I'm fed up with his constant cheating and working the system. And Manning with his inability to stand up to pressure is not in my top 5.

harrison'samonster wrote:

KeepHarrisonTilHes92 wrote:

The majority of football fans bandwagon and choose like 4-5 "favorite teams" a year, who cares what sort of opinions they develop with the minimum amount of attention they put in.

You know who else wasn't a good QB at all? The guy who called his on plays, didnt deflate any balls, and didnt pick up every blitz with a wealth of footage on other teams hand signals for play calls, winning 4 superbowls in 6 years.

I'm not saying Brady isnt damn good. But put any QB on the Patriots*** in the shitty AFC east with a ruthless genius of a coach who will add any advantage (as if the AFC east in the last 12 years wasnt advantage enough), and they'd come away with 4 or maybe more.

Put Phillip Rivers, Drew Brees, Bruce Gradkowski, or Ryan Fitzpatrick in the exact same scenario. All four end with the greatest QB to ever play the game.

\

agreed, and I use to discount the cheating myself, until deflategate.  At this point, I don't put Brady in the conversation of top QBs; I'm fed up with his constant cheating and working the system.  And Manning with his inability to stand up to pressure is not in my top 5.

With Brady and Belicheat, I think the Pats* have only missed the playoff twice and something like all but 2 of those were byes. A lot easier path to the Super Bowl when you can walk through your division with 5-6 wins a year and sit out the first week of the postseason.

Obsession of who's greater than who in a sport where you have to rely on 10 guys around you, 11 others on the other side of the ball and 11 more on special teams, is exhausting.

Manning transformed the sport. Transformed culture in an entire state of a country. His play built a new stadium. The man did it with 5 different coaches, 2 different franchises, 2 different franchise running backs, made countless receivers into 1000 yard receivers. Did it with a drunk, dope addict owner and another owner who is ill and now run by his spouse. He was the man who ran it all and to me is the best QB of his era.

Tom Brady has the rings, but he is also fortunate to have one of the best owners in the NFL, the best coach in the NFL and had the luxury of having one of the best defenses in the early 2000s when he was winning super bowls as well as the most clutch kicker in NFL history. And hasn't had to move or do anything besides play QB.

I disagree about Brady. do you guys really think only cheating was the reason he went to 6 Super Bowls and won 4? That has to be a crazy amount of cheating. and as far as deflategate, that game was out of hand well before that and it dint contribute to a 40+ pt margin.

If Brady looked like a goof and no one knew who his wife was instead of who he is and what he looks like and who he married to, no one would make a big deal. But there is a sense of jealousy from the normal guy and that leads to irrational crap like he is a cheater, etc as his ONLY reason for success. A- rod in baseball is the same thing. No one goes crazy over Big papi when he cheated, in fact its forgotten. But A Rod is continually ridiculed by it.

steelers5895 wrote:

there is a sense of jealousy from the normal guy and that leads to irrational crap like he is a cheater

no, what leads to people saying Brady is a cheater is that he is you know...a liar and a cheater.

KeepHarrisonTilHes92 wrote:

The majority of football fans bandwagon and choose like 4-5 "favorite teams" a year, who cares what sort of opinions they develop with the minimum amount of attention they put in.

You know who else wasn't a good QB at all? The guy who called his on plays, didnt deflate any balls, and didnt pick up every blitz with a wealth of footage on other teams hand signals for play calls, winning 4 superbowls in 6 years.

I'm not saying Brady isnt damn good. But put any QB on the Patriots** in the shitty AFC east with a ruthless genius of a coach who will add any advantage (as if the AFC east in the last 12 years wasnt advantage enough), and they'd come away with 4 or maybe more.

Put Phillip Rivers, Drew Brees, Bruce Gradkowski, or Ryan Fitzpatrick in the exact same scenario. All four end with the greatest QB to ever play the game.

Have to agree with this. Honestly there's so much stuff with the Brady that just makes me wonder. I won't say he sucks but I greatly hesiste on giving him the GOAT title because of alot of the stuff that has gone on with him and the Pats* over the years. Call that jealously all you want but it's part of his legacy.

so were the 70s steelers, not that you know anything about them.  Although not illegal, just about their entire o-line used steroids.  Chuck Noll knew too but used the excuse he didn't know what effect they were having.  Kolb could bench over 600lbs.  We all know what happened to Webster.  Larry Brown went from a lean TE to a Tackle.  

Steroids were used to enhance performance which was cheating.

should we give the 4 trophies back?

steelers5895 wrote:

so were the 70s steelers, not that you know anything about them.

do you think you're the only poster here that knows about the history of our storied franchise?

quit being so damn condescending and maybe people will start actually taking you serious...

steelers5895 wrote:

I disagree about Brady.  do you guys really think only cheating was the reason he went to 6 Super Bowls and won 4?  That has to be a crazy amount of cheating.  and as far as deflategate, that game was out of hand well before that and it dint contribute to a 40+ pt margin.

If Brady looked like a goof and no one knew who his wife was instead of who he is and what he looks like and who he married to, no one would make a big deal.  But there is a sense of jealousy from the normal guy and that leads to irrational crap like he is a cheater, etc as his ONLY reason for success.  A- rod in baseball is the same thing.  No one goes crazy over Big papi when he cheated, in fact its forgotten.  But A Rod is continually ridiculed by it.

I do not think cheating is the only reason. My post was much more nuanced than that. I said that you could put any half decent QB in the exact same starting position that Brady fell into. With the exact same shady practices and it would be a perfect fostering environment to make the GOAT. Kinda hard not to make the playoffs every year in the AFC East. Hard not to win playoff games when you statistically are able to peg opponents defensive play calls and win one superbowl before anyone even takes the allegations seriously. Brady is a hell of a quarterback now but I still insist, and its hypothetical so it matters very little, that any decent quarterback could be put into that system of grabbing every little advantage (of which the numbers we may never actually know) on top of being in a very weak division, would have an equal or in some cases greater amount of success if, say, it were Brees or Rivers or Big Ben.

The only thing I ever give the Pats* full uncontested credit for. Is that their O-Line, until last season, has been SOLID, and that Gronk is one man gamechanger. The superbowl winning teams at NE were certainly teams built to win superbowls but IMO Brady cant be the GOAT when you look at his level of division competition, and his constant doubt-creating shady antics.

ESPECIALLY when you weigh him against, say, Joe Montana. Another 4 time SB winner. Without those smudges to his name, or the oddity of having a coach who did jack shit in Cleveland and a 6th round pick becoming the winningest coach and qb duo in NFL history. The AFC east I maintain, certainly helped. And there were some other things that we all know certainly helped. You cant boil the nuance out of our comments and then ask us to contest that new narrative that you imposed on us, when it wasn't our narrative in the slightest. I think thats called scarecrowing, and it can turn any rational discussion into just name calling and pointless arguing. All I'm suggesting is, if you happen to detect any grey area to something someone says, put it on scale in your mind used to weigh those factors together. If you ignore them then everyone seems to think that you just wanna argue. Because rarely do people who weigh all points by a bunch of different people with different viewpoints on one issue, so quickly disagree with everyone.

OX1947 wrote:

Obsession of who's greater than who in a sport where you have to rely on 10 guys around you, 11 others on the other side of the ball and 11 more on special teams, is exhausting.

Manning transformed the sport. Transformed culture in an entire state of a country. His play built a new stadium. The man did it with 5 different coaches, 2 different franchises, 2 different franchise running backs, made countless receivers into 1000 yard receivers. Did it with a drunk, dope addict owner and another owner who is ill and now run by his spouse. He was the man who ran it all and to me is the best QB of his era.

Tom Brady has the rings, but he is also fortunate to have one of the best owners in the NFL, the best coach in the NFL and had the luxury of having one of the best defenses in the early 2000s when he was winning super bowls as well as the most clutch kicker in NFL history. And hasn't had to move or do anything besides play QB.

Sure. Even more points to weigh into consideration here. To establish the GOAT at qb 'would' be exhausting. But I think if we did weigh all negatives and all positives for all the greats at QB. Without going too far into it, and making a snap decision right now, I'd say Joe Montana. But it's still an opinion.

here is why I disagree with Montana and put him behind Brady and manning. Montana had so much talent around him and the niners didn't lose a beat when Steve Young took over. In KC, Montana couldn't get them over the hump. Manning did for Denver when he switched teams.

remember, KC in the mid 90s had one of the top defenses and Montana couldn't win so we cant say Manning benefiting from a great defense diminishes what he did. if it does, then so does Montana not winning with one

steelers5895 wrote:

here is why I disagree with Montana and put him behind Brady and manning.  Montana had so much talent around him and the niners didn't lose a beat when Steve Young took over.  In KC, Montana couldn't get them over the hump.  Manning did for Denver when he switched teams.  

remember, KC in the mid 90s had one of the top defenses and Montana couldn't win so we cant say Manning benefiting from a great defense diminishes what he did.  if it does, then so does Montana not winning with one

I don't disagree at all with Manning. Hes tied Favre for most wins and has broken every relevant passing record. If theres to be be a GOAT then even with 2 wins to Bradys 4 I like Manning. The reason I say Montana is because him and Jerry Rice were iconic, he was a great passer and playmaker, and he won 4. Manning winning with two different teams and breaking all the records though is a stronger argument. But there is also a little bit of a legendary feel when talking Montana in the 49ers hersey thats hard to ignore. If Pey Peys defense in Indy was much better he I think he'd be the hands down GOAT without any reason for debating it because he would have more than 2 SBs and been on top of the Brady/Manning rivalry.

with the way the game has changed over the years including free agency and the rules changing to favor passing, this conversation is completely subjective.  Anybody can have their reasons for picking one QB over another.  I like to keep it within those I've seen play, and I like to disqualify those I've seen cheat.  This disqualifies for me Brady and older QB's like Bradshaw or Johnny Unitas.

saying Montana isn't better than Brady because he had a better team around him doesn't work for me because Montana played in an era in which teams were built up and preserved to keep competing for a championship year after year.  In Brady's era free agency has made it harder to do that.  But Brady has had the benefit of playing in a time when passing was far far more favored than the running game, plus he's a cheater.

This way of thinking also invites the argument that Brady is only considered better than Brees or Manning, or Marino, or etc etc. because he's always played on better teams.  See how that works?

In twenty years, if the NFL is still around, some Qb will have broken all the records and everybody will be saying it's obvious he's the best QB ever.  Not just the best for one year, or the better QB for that game, but the BEST OF ALL TIME!!!!!!!!!!  And they will be wrong.  Because Ben Roethlisberger is the best QB of all time.

harrison'samonster wrote:

with the way the game has changed over the years including free agency and the rules changing to favor passing, this conversation is completely subjective.  Anybody can have their reasons for picking one QB over another.  I like to keep it within those I've seen play, and I like to disqualify those I've seen cheat.  This disqualifies for me Brady and older QB's like Bradshaw or Johnny Unitas.

saying Montana isn't better than Brady because he had a better team around him doesn't work for me because Montana played in an era in which teams were built up and preserved to keep competing for a championship year after year.  In Brady's era free agency has made it harder to do that.  But Brady has had the benefit of playing in a time when passing was far far more favored than the running game, plus he's a cheater.

This way of thinking also invites the argument that Brady is only considered better than Brees or Manning, or Marino, or etc etc. because he's always played on better teams.  See how that works?

In twenty years, if the NFL is still around, some Qb will have broken all the records and everybody will be saying it's obvious he's the best QB ever.  Not just the best for one year, or the better QB for that game, but the BEST OF ALL TIME!!!!!!!!!!  And they will be wrong.  Because Ben Roethlisberger is the best QB of all time.

Fuck yeah

harrison'samonster wrote:

with the way the game has changed over the years including free agency and the rules changing to favor passing, this conversation is completely subjective.  Anybody can have their reasons for picking one QB over another.  I like to keep it within those I've seen play, and I like to disqualify those I've seen cheat.  This disqualifies for me Brady and older QB's like Bradshaw or Johnny Unitas.

saying Montana isn't better than Brady because he had a better team around him doesn't work for me because Montana played in an era in which teams were built up and preserved to keep competing for a championship year after year.

Agreed - hard to compare eras - free agency makes it difficult for opponents of successful teams to keep their teams together as well

70s Steelers, Raiders and Cowboys had to deal with each other, as Roger Staubach has told Montana

"But I kidded Montana about it one time, 'Hey, try on the Steelers sometime. You beat the Bengals twice.'"

http://newspot.me/n/01hPABd8?original=true

Both are future HOFer and you couldn't go wrong with either one. The difference between an all-time top 5 and all-time top 15 QB is slim. If it's a head-to-head match up, it always come down to the team, not the QB when you consider the QB talent level is so close.

I pick Ben only because I like his style more.

Is Ben Roethlisberger elite thread......never seen this one before.

Anybody ever think of starting a thread about Mike Wallace??

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

Is Ben Roethlisberger elite thread......never seen this one before.

Anybody ever think of starting a thread about Mike Wallace??

Speaking of Wallace, he was just cut by the Vikings.


I'm very thankful he was money hungry, cause I hate the thought of AB playing for another team.

Personally I think when all is said and done Ben will be one of the best of all time.

Not that everyone doesn't already know but of the 'MAJOR' stat categories here is where Ben stands as of today going into the 2016 season:
Yards - 42,995 - 13th
TD passes - 272 - 14th
W/L record - 113-56 - 10th all time

So now lets say he maintains an average of the following based on his 12 year career to date until he's 38 the end of his current contract:
Yards - 3,582 * 4 = 14,328
TD passes - 23 * 4 = 92
W/L - 9-7 * 4 = 36-28

Now it'll be tough to catch certain guys such as Brees (who i think throws A LOT of garbage yards cause his team plays from behind A LOT in one of the worst divisions but yet he's 'elite' hmmmm) anyway Ben would rank in the following spots if current players never throw another pass or win another game

Yards - 42,995 + 14,328 = 57,323 - he'd rank 6th all time
TD Passes - 272 + 92 = 364 - he'd rank 5th all time
W/L - 113-56 + 36-28 = 149-84 - 4th all time

Also people might not know but Ben also passed for more yards than Aaron 'God' Rodgers last year and he played in 5 less games (I'm including the Rams/Raiders injuries as an extra as they were fairly early in the 2nd half of each), but yet Rodgers is just a 'defacto' BEST QB.
As of today the 'elite' QBs and I don't care the order as they should just be in the discussion are Rodgers, Ben and Brady (I say brady because the media doesn't want to admit he cheated otherwise there's only 2 guys today).

It's like somone said in an earlier post that Rivers is great. There's not one 'smart' person that would pick Rivers over Ben or even Eli from the '04 draft class because those 2 have got the job done.

I could go on forever here its frustrating that certain guys get FAR too much credit and some don't get any or enough like Ben.

Ultimately just get that 3rd ring and put an end to certain debates.

SteelersNorth wrote:

Personally I think when all is said and done Ben will be one of the best of all time.

Not that everyone doesn't already know but of the 'MAJOR' stat categories here is where Ben stands as of today going into the 2016 season:
Yards - 42,995 - 13th
TD passes - 272 - 14th
W/L record - 113-56 - 10th all time

So now lets say he maintains an average of the following based on his 12 year career to date until he's 38 the end of his current contract:
Yards - 3,582 * 4 = 14,328
TD passes - 23 * 4 = 92
W/L - 9-7 * 4 = 36-28

Now it'll be tough to catch certain guys such as Brees (who i think throws A LOT of garbage yards cause his team plays from behind A LOT in one of the worst divisions but yet he's 'elite' hmmmm) anyway Ben would rank in the following spots if current players never throw another pass or win another game

Yards - 42,995 + 14,328 = 57,323 - he'd rank 6th all time
TD Passes - 272 + 92 = 364 - he'd rank 5th all time
W/L - 113-56 + 36-28 = 149-84 - 4th all time

Also people might not know but Ben also passed for more yards than Aaron 'God' Rodgers last year and he played in 5 less games (I'm including the Rams/Raiders injuries as an extra as they were fairly early in the 2nd half of each), but yet Rodgers is just a 'defacto' BEST QB.
As of today the 'elite' QBs and I don't care the order as they should just be in the discussion are Rodgers, Ben and Brady (I say brady because the media doesn't want to admit he cheated otherwise there's only 2 guys today).

It's like somone said in an earlier post that Rivers is great. There's not one 'smart' person that would pick Rivers over Ben or even Eli from the '04 draft class because those 2 have got the job done.

I could go on forever here its frustrating that certain guys get FAR too much credit and some don't get any or enough like Ben.

Ultimately just get that 3rd ring and put an end to certain debates.

Cowher wanted Rivers over Ben. I like Rivers a lot but Ben is better

steelers5895 wrote:

SteelersNorth wrote:

Personally I think when all is said and done Ben will be one of the best of all time.

Not that everyone doesn't already know but of the 'MAJOR' stat categories here is where Ben stands as of today going into the 2016 season:
Yards - 42,995 - 13th
TD passes - 272 - 14th
W/L record - 113-56 - 10th all time

So now lets say he maintains an average of the following based on his 12 year career to date until he's 38 the end of his current contract:
Yards - 3,582 * 4 = 14,328
TD passes - 23 * 4 = 92
W/L - 9-7 * 4 = 36-28

Now it'll be tough to catch certain guys such as Brees (who i think throws A LOT of garbage yards cause his team plays from behind A LOT in one of the worst divisions but yet he's 'elite' hmmmm) anyway Ben would rank in the following spots if current players never throw another pass or win another game

Yards - 42,995 + 14,328 = 57,323 - he'd rank 6th all time
TD Passes - 272 + 92 = 364 - he'd rank 5th all time
W/L - 113-56 + 36-28 = 149-84 - 4th all time

Also people might not know but Ben also passed for more yards than Aaron 'God' Rodgers last year and he played in 5 less games (I'm including the Rams/Raiders injuries as an extra as they were fairly early in the 2nd half of each), but yet Rodgers is just a 'defacto' BEST QB.
As of today the 'elite' QBs and I don't care the order as they should just be in the discussion are Rodgers, Ben and Brady (I say brady because the media doesn't want to admit he cheated otherwise there's only 2 guys today).

It's like somone said in an earlier post that Rivers is great. There's not one 'smart' person that would pick Rivers over Ben or even Eli from the '04 draft class because those 2 have got the job done.

I could go on forever here its frustrating that certain guys get FAR too much credit and some don't get any or enough like Ben.

Ultimately just get that 3rd ring and put an end to certain debates.

Cowher wanted Rivers over Ben. I like Rivers a lot but Ben is better

Good thing he didn't get Rivers cause it would be 35 years and no Super Bowls for the Steelers and counting.

I think Rivers is a clown, he's the guy that has to chirp you when he's losing to make himself feel better. Plus who throws a football like their playing shot put?