Mean Joe Greene: A Football Life

The NFL channel is airing "A football life - Mean Joe Greene" today.

It's on at 10:00 a.m. pst, so check your local listings. I'm sure it will be aired again this weekend/week.

If they don't mention how he refused to sign Steelers gear decades after being passed over for Cowher? Don't want to hear it.

No one is perfect!!!

Please. He wanted nothing to do with the Steelers until he had nowhere else to go.

Then all of the sudden he's a "Steeler" again.

That's the problem with the organization. Too obsessed with creating the past rather than embrace the current/future.

That has to change.

Just once Crash ... just once. I want to hear you say something positive about the Steelers that doesn't involve Ben.

I can understand your dislike of Haley and LeBeau. You're far from alone there. I can even understand your dislike of Art II. For better or worse, he's not going to run the team exactly the same way that Dan ran it.

But in the past 24 hours, I've seen you take shots at Troy and now Mean Joe. You have 108 posts, and I haven't seen ONE that is positive about anything other than Ben and Arians. If it wasn't for your love of Ben, I'd question whether you're even a Steelers fan. Either you're a troll, or you're someone who is only happy when he's being negative and bitching about something. Which is it?

Let me ask you something, if YOU, were an NFL strong safety, and had new free safety for the first time in 8 years would you:

A) Stay away from Pittsburgh all off season until you were required to be there

or

B) Go to Pittsburgh ASAP and get to know on a personal level, and then pick his brain on a professional level, of Mike Mitchell?

Troy's not 25 anymore. They don't have years to "play through" getting to learn each other.

If there was any year for Troy to break the pattern, and change things up? It was this one.

mrcrash wrote:

Let me ask you something, if YOU, were an NFL strong safety, and had new free safety for the first time in 8 years would you:

A) Stay away from Pittsburgh all off season until you were required to be there

or

B) Go to Pittsburgh ASAP and get to know on a personal level, and then pick his brain on a  professional level, of Mike Mitchell?

Troy's not 25 anymore.   They don't have years to "play through" getting to learn each other.  

If there was any year for Troy to break the pattern, and change things up?  It was this one.  

I actually don't disagree with you on that.

But it doesn't change my point. In 108 posts, you haven't said one positive thing that doesn't involve either Ben or Arians. You've done nothing but criticize every aspect of the team ... from the players to the coaches to Rooney. And when a thread is started about Mean Joe, unarguably one of the greatest players in Steelers history, your first (and second) response is to post something negative about him.

In two other threads I've asked you to say something positive about the Steelers. You ignored me both times. So I'll ask you again ... other than Ben, what do you like about the Steelers?

Ben, Brown (who people laughed at me when I said after his first pre-season that he would be our #1 WR in 2011), Timmons, Troy, Heyward, DD, Foster (an underrated talent).

Our problems are not lack of talent. Our problems are a DC who's content to just trot out his tired veterans and his outdated schemes. An OC who's more worried about showing off his genius, such as this play below:



And then, add all that to a meddlesome owner who decided to blame, and make an example of a HOF QB despite winning 3 AFC titles and two Super Bowl rings in 8 years? You have the shit show that is currently the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Crash, copy and paste your last post into the Haley thread. I'll eventually respond to it there. I don't wanna hijack this thread anymore than we already have. We can debate Haley and LeBeau until one of us passes out from exhaustion, but let's try to keep the debate from spilling into every thread (unless it's a thread about Haley or LeBeau). And for the record, it was me who got us off topic in this thread.

Wallace108 wrote:

Just once Crash ... just once. I want to hear you say something positive about the Steelers that doesn't involve Ben.

I can understand your dislike of Haley and LeBeau. You're far from alone there. I can even understand your dislike of Art II. For better or worse, he's not going to run the team exactly the same way that Dan ran it.

But in the past 24 hours, I've seen you take shots at Troy and now Mean Joe. You have 108 posts, and I haven't seen ONE that is positive about anything other than Ben and Arians. If it wasn't for your love of Ben, I'd question whether you're even a Steelers fan. Either you're a troll, or you're someone who is only happy when he's being negative and bitching about something. Which is it?

Amen Wally. After all Joe did for the team and the city of Pittsburgh I can understand him being upset for being passed over. Water under the bridge. He wasn't just a great player he is a fine man. I have never attacked any member on this site and I won't do it now but as the old saying goes "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all". Over the past couple years (and I've said this before) I've bit my tongue in able to not bash Tomlin and even LeBeau. The fact is Joe,L.C.,Ernie,and Dwight were a matching set we will probably never see again. Chuck was the driver but these guys played with pride and love of the game. Saying that Joe Greene is any less of an icon because of one error is plain crazy. Honestly I want to stay positive about the future of the team I've loved for over 40 years so I try to limit my own negative thinking and I understand criticism but not day in and day out. One last thing. IMHO a true fan may bitch some but at the end of the day.....

He can be upset all he wants.

But what did the fans do to him?

Don't hold a grudge for 10 years and then when you need a job all of the sudden "see the light" and return.

Makes him nothing but a hypocrite.

And where in post was it specified, initially, that he walked on water?

The post was intended to inform the board that a Steeler was to be featured on "A Football Life".

I distinctly remember your hero, Ben, and the numerous comments in the Pittsburgh papers on his aloofness to fans AND the media his first couple of years in Pittsburgh. Ben doesn't exactly have a stellar spread sheet.

At least Greene never did anything to embarrass the organization.

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I distinctly remember your hero, Ben, and the numerous comments in the Pittsburgh papers on his aloofness to fans AND the media his first couple of years in Pittsburgh. Ben doesn't exactly have a stellar spread sheet.

Based on what? Rumors?

If anything if you read papers some media (and his teammates) they've said those reports weren't accurate.

Next?

^^^ Really??^^^

It came out of Farrior's own mouth as he talked about Ben's aloofness and the non-bonding with the team (during a show in which Ben is on a boat with his O line)-- this was after he started to become a better teammate and his public apology.

https://youtu.be/h4kyadviN88


For Christ's sake, even Ben admits he was an ass

However, my purpose is not to "diss" Big Ben. He apologized. He seemingly changed. Fine with me. But really, before you start stoning other players, remember that none of them are perfect.

Gingerchip wrote:

^^^ Really??^^^

It came out of Farrior's own mouth as he talked about Ben's aloofness and the non-bonding with the team (during a show in which Ben is on a boat with his O line)-- this was after he started to become a better teammate and his public apology.

And Tim Benz, who was in the locker room every day said that some of the alleged "issues" with Ben/teammates were because of things "not of Ben's own doing". IE. When your franchise QB? Your time is limited, your are constantly pulled in every direction. Media this, ,media that. It comes with the position he plays.

Ben on the boat with his linemen? That was prior to the 2009 season. He has ALWAYS been close with his OL. From the day he got there.

He also footed the bill for he and his line to fly to Chicago after their Thursday night win against the Bengals in 2008 to celebrate Justin Hartwig's (his first year on the team btw) birthday. He also flew his linemen and their significant others to the Pro Bowl in January 2008. Not just the starters, ALL OF THEM. That was BEFORE ANY of this off the field BS.

He also paid about $20,000 for a youth football team to fly out to California to play in Snoop Dog's football tournament in December 2009. Where was Farrior?

The way the media portrayed Ben after Georgia was a joke. It was never accurate.

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For Christ's sake, even Ben admits he was an ass

And his closest friend on the team, Brett Keisel was so thrown by that comment he questioned why Ben would even say it.

mrcrash wrote:

Based on what?  Rumors?

Long before either of the rape allegations, I was talking to one of our sportswriters at work who used to cover the Steelers (back when we still covered the Steelers). One of his good friends (a woman) went to college with Ben and knew him. In her words, he was a BIG partier and a sleazeball. Being a sleazeball doesn't make you a rapist. But it might put you in a position to be accused of it. Twice. Like I said, my co-worker told me that long before either rape allegation and before anything negative was being said about Ben.

I'm not saying this to attack Ben. I've ALWAYS defended him against those rape allegations. I'm just pointing out that Ben hasn't always been a great guy. And in his first few years, he wasn't exactly fan friendly. All the evidence is there for those who choose not to be a homer and ignore it. You can't hold Mean Joe to one standard and Ben to another one.

With that said, Ben HAS changed and matured.

Cowher:

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"Above it all, watching him grow off the field - a mature father, husband, and listening to him talk and speak as I see in the media - he's so much more mature now."

Rooney:

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"We get these guys when they're pretty young and some of them come to us and sometimes they need to mature a little bit. Ben has done that and we're certainly proud of where he is and the kind of person he is and hopefully he's going to be here a lot longer."

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NEW YORK -- Former Pittsburgh Steelers coach Bill Cowher said it was hard to get through to Ben Roethlisberger after the quarterback had so much success early in his career.

Yet Cowher believes the sexual-assault investigation that led to a six-game suspension for Roethlisberger was a "slap in the face" that has resulted in some much-needed maturity.

In an interview with The Associated Press on Tuesday, Cowher described how Roethlisberger used to respond to advice about his off-the-field behavior. "'But we're winning games. We're winning championships'," Cowher recounted. "'What do you mean? Isn't that what we're here to do?' "

"Yeah," Cowher said, "but there's more to it than that. It's the whole body of work. It's you as a person, what kind of legacy you want to leave. I really think he understands that now."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d819fc41c/article/cowher-expects-a-more-mature-roethlisberger-will-emerge

Before the second rape allegation (which might have been a blessing in disguise), Ben was living up to all the "rumors."

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All the evidence is there for those who choose not to be a homer and ignore it. You can't hold Mean Joe to one standard and Ben to another one.

After all, the standard is the standard (sorry, I couldn't resist)

Amen Wally.  And that was the point was I trying to make.

And you ask where was Farrior? Most likely working diligently with his brother on his own foundation in VA. I know what great things that it was accomplishing as I resided in VA.

Quote :

Long before either of the rape allegations, I was talking to one of our sportswriters at work who used to cover the Steelers (back when we still covered the Steelers). One of his good friends (a woman) went to college with Ben and knew him. In her words, he was a BIG partier and a sleazeball.

That's why before he was drafted during their background checks the NFL brass went to numerous establishments around Miami OH's campus for information about Ben's habits "off the field", and they found NOTHING. Didn't go to bars, didn't party, squat.

The NFL has mighty long arms. Which makes their pleading ignorance on the Ray Rice situation all the more laughable.

Btw, those pics are from 2005. His 2nd season.

That's also the year he met his eventual wife, and her brothers at training camp. How is that possible if he's not fan friendly?

Just like media who said in 2010 that Ben was giving away his cleats at camp was a publicity stunt.

Um, no, he did that for years PRIOR to 2010. A kid carries his pads up the hill after practice? He signs the cleats. Players have been doing this for decades.

My favorite was when someone said he drove a mini-Cooper, and not some souped up vehicle to 2010 training camp to "change his image".

Um, no, Ben AND his linemen, all drove mini-Coopers provided by a dealership that Max Starks was an investor in.

I'm sure Ben has turned down an autograph or two. That doesn't make him a bad person.

Just like Troy Polamalu (who once paid an entire restaurants tab for allowing he and his wife the simple pleasure of eating a meal in peace) flat out ignoring little Richard Culliver before the Titans game in 2012 (Troy was hurt and wasn't playing). Troy was DESTROYED on social media when witnesses (complete with pictures) posted the incident on Facebook. Only after that happened did Troy "make it right".

That doesn't make him a bad guy either. It happens.

No one is saying Ben is a "bad" person. Although I have my own opinion about him, I won't get into that type of debate on this board.

No Steeler, present or past, is without flaws (or any other human being).

It was your snarky comment on Joe Greene that landed this thread in this spot.

It's not snarky. It's fact. Out of his own mouth.

He "moved on" from the Steelers.

Then somehow a year later, he's Joe Louis greeting people at Caesars Palace.

mrcrash wrote:

That's also the year he met his eventual wife, and her brothers at training camp.  How is that possible if he's not fan friendly?  

No one ever accused Ben of not being fan friendly with hot women.  

mrcrash wrote:

I'm sure Ben has turned down an autograph or two.  That doesn't make him a bad person.

It goes a lot deeper than just turning down an autograph or two.  

mrcrash wrote:

Just like Troy Polamalu (who once paid an entire restaurants tab for allowing he and his wife the simple pleasure of eating a meal in peace) flat out ignoring little Richard Culliver before the Titans game in 2012 (Troy was hurt and wasn't playing).  Troy was DESTROYED on social media when witnesses (complete with pictures) posted the incident on Facebook.  Only after that happened did Troy "make it right".

That doesn't make him a bad guy either.  It happens.

So that's ONE bad thing that was said about Troy during his career in Pittsburgh. Where are all the other fans accusing Troy of bad behavior? Where are all the bar and club owners accusing him of bad behavior? Where are all of Troy's old friends and former teammates saying that he's not a great guy? All of that exists with Ben, so you can't compare it to ONE incident involving Troy.

Like I said, Ben's reputation goes much deeper than just turning down an autograph or two.

Excerpts from a New York Times article:

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To Roethlisberger’s many fans, the revelations of his conduct have come as a shock. But to many who knew him growing up in Findlay, Ohio, played with him in college or saw his personality change in Pittsburgh, the seeds of his problems were sown long ago.

“It took awhile,” Ryan Hawk, a backup to Roethlisberger at Miami, said in a telephone interview, “but it’s all coming out now.”

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Those who knew the young Roethlisberger described him as a person who was intensely driven to succeed in athletics but who was allowed little time to develop socially. He had friends, they said, but few were close. He could be charming at times, they said, but usually when it served his self-interests.

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But as Roethlisberger began to succeed on the field, he also began to exhibit signs of privilege that later characterized his recent actions off the field, those who knew him said.

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Roethlisberger’s senior year of high school, when he became the starting quarterback and set state records, had its share of drama. Some of his receivers felt forced to befriend Roethlisberger out of fear that he would not throw the ball to them, said Josh Huston, a former teammate who went on to be a kicker for Ohio State.

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High school classmates considered Roethlisberger cocky, Acheson said, adding that he tried too hard and was difficult to talk to because he was so focused on succeeding athletically.

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Huston said he rarely spent time with Roethlisberger because he did not like his swagger, trash talk and competitiveness beyond sports.

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“I think he felt like he needed more respect than what he got off the field for being a good athlete,” Huston said in a telephone interview.

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As Miami freshmen they were going to redshirt, but Hawk was forced into action late in the season because of injuries.

Players like Roethlisberger, who traveled with the team but were not expected to play, were supposed to participate in 5 a.m. weight-lifting sessions the day before games. But Roethlisberger never showed up, which upset the older players, Hawk said.

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Roethlisberger’s absences, Hawk said, caused the team to institute a rule requiring freshmen to participate in the sessions unless they were playing. When Roethlisberger became the Miami starter the next season, Hawk said, his teammates openly laughed at him for missing the weight-lifting sessions.

“It was little stuff like that that built up,” Hawk said.

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As Roethlisberger became a fixture in Pittsburgh bars and clubs, word spread about his boorish manner.

Throughout the Pittsburgh area, he developed a reputation among waiters and bartenders for leaving without paying and, if he did pay, for tipping poorly. His behavior toward women grew increasingly aggressive and demanding, with those he dated and those he encountered at nightclubs, those who know him said.

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“It got to the extent the past two or three years that it was a phenomenon,” said Jesse Herrle, general manager of Tad’s on East Carson, a bar on Pittsburgh’s trendy South Side. “It grew into something he lost control of and it turned on him. He became a joke in this town and, in my industry, a laughingstock. People knew when he was in a bar or out and about; he was a punch line.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/sports/football/30quarterback.html?pagewanted=all

The New York Times article contradicts the story I was told about his college reputation. Although, as we know, two different people can give you two completely different descriptions of a person. Regardless, I'm not going to insist something is accurate when I don't personally know the person who said it. But even if she wasn't telling the truth, she was prophetic.  

But the rest of the article supports all the negative things we've heard about Ben in Pittsburgh. His high school teammates didn't seem to like him very much. Some of his receivers felt forced to be friends with him so he'd throw them the ball. His college teammates didn't seem to like him very much. His teammates openly laughed at him for some of his selfish actions. Everyone considered him cocky and self-centered. His old friends and teammates said he felt privileged and entitled. That supports all the "rumors" we heard from some fans, bars and clubs early in his career.

And lets not forget ... when Hines Ward announced his retirement, Ben didn't attend. During his speech, Hines mentioned both Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart. Not one mention of Ben. What does that say? During Ward's career in Pittsburgh, I don't recall him having too many problems with his teammates. But his relationship with Ben seems an awful lot like Ben's relationship with his high school and college teammates.

There's just too much evidence and credible testimony from friends and former teammates to suggest that there's no truth to all the "rumors."

Again, I'm not trying to attack or criticize Ben. I'm just saying that he wasn't always such a great guy. He made a lot of mistakes. He acted in a lot of ways that served his own self-interests. No different than what you're criticizing Mean Joe for.

You're wasting your breath, Wally (or should I say fingers typing)

He will come back throw some meaningless name of a person that was Ben's personal valet or something.   Ben admitted in the interview with Sally Wiggins that he needed to treat the media and fans better, and basically to grow up and not put himself on such a high horse.

I love good open rhetoric.  I don't care for a blind debate.  Especially when a poster accuses Rooney of being aloof, an ass, or whatever based on "hearsay".  Yet everyone else is full of crap or shouldn't listen to rumors when it comes to Ben because it's all a lie.

I'm bored.  As Warren Sapp might say "this thread is old, boring, and over"

Gingerchip wrote:

I love good open rhetoric.  I don't care for a blind debate.  Especially when a poster accuses Rooney of being aloof, an ass, or whatever based on "hearsay".

In all fairness, my co-worker who used to cover the Steelers said the same thing about Art. He said he's nowhere near as personable as Dan is. Keep in mind though ... that's coming from the same guy who told me what his friend said about Ben in college.

Seriously though, he's interacted with both Dan and Art, and based on some things he's told me, he would agree that Art is aloof. I don't think there's any question that Art doesn't have the same personality as Dan.

Everything else you said though. Yeah, spot on.