Steelers @ Browns

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

Steeler-in-west wrote:

Kenny is being setup to fail, as Mitch was before him and Ben before that. Playcalling stinks. Canada is going to ruin our 1st round QB. Already half the fan base thinks it Kenny’s fault

IF he is being "setup" to fail, then he is certainly embracing it. kenny has failed to connect on a lot of opportunities he has had. i havent been keeping count but it seems to me like he has been averaging about 5 horrible  throws a game that even an average QB should be hitting. the pass blocking today was total shit, but didnt Ben still succeed with horrible pass protection for much of his career ? i stopped making excuse for pickett about 6 games ago. there is an old saying...if you're are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

I think he’s being told to go with his first read and being told not to or discouraged from freelancing (not that there’s much time anyway). Does he even look at the middle of the field or deep at all? No, I don’t think so, he’s just going with the first read - even if it’s not open. The guy was good last year, seemed to make good reads, looked people off, scrambled to buy time, that’s all gone. But he has done it, you don’t forget that stuff, but Canada is really straightjacketing this guy right now. That’s my take, I think he’s going to be really good if he gets better coaching or goes somewhere else where there is better coaching

Steeler-in-west wrote:

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

Steeler-in-west wrote:

Kenny is being setup to fail, as Mitch was before him and Ben before that. Playcalling stinks. Canada is going to ruin our 1st round QB. Already half the fan base thinks it Kenny’s fault

IF he is being "setup" to fail, then he is certainly embracing it. kenny has failed to connect on a lot of opportunities he has had. i havent been keeping count but it seems to me like he has been averaging about 5 horrible  throws a game that even an average QB should be hitting. the pass blocking today was total shit, but didnt Ben still succeed with horrible pass protection for much of his career ? i stopped making excuse for pickett about 6 games ago. there is an old saying...if you're are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

I think he’s being told to go with his first read and being told not to or discouraged from freelancing (not that there’s much time anyway). Does he even look at the middle of the field or deep at all? No, I don’t think so, he’s just going with the first read - even if it’s not open. The guy was good last year, seemed to make good reads, looked people off, scrambled to buy time, that’s all gone. But he has done it, you don’t forget that stuff, but Canada is really straightjacketing this guy right now. That’s my take, I think he’s going to be really good if he gets better coaching or goes somewhere else where there is better coaching

Kenny may be below average or even bad. It is hard to know. Yeah, he is missing throws and has regressed this year...probably even regressed from early year until now. I do believe the coaching is enhancing his decline. I keep hearing Steelers fans wishing Dobbs was still here but in reality how would he be doing coached by this staff? I'm paraphrasing here, but after the game Tomlin said something along the lines of 'we were only a play or 2 short'. Really, you want to say that???!!!  Your QB just threw for 105 yds, your best offensive player carried the ball 9 times, a rookie QB marched down the field for the game winner after you mismanaged the clock at the end to save the clock for the Browns. Maybe he meant another 75 yd Warren run? I can see both sides of a debate like this, but I would like to see Kenny and the rest of the team managed by someone competent to get a better feel.

LambertWardSteel wrote:

Steeler-in-west wrote:

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

Steeler-in-west wrote:

Kenny is being setup to fail, as Mitch was before him and Ben before that. Playcalling stinks. Canada is going to ruin our 1st round QB. Already half the fan base thinks it Kenny’s fault

IF he is being "setup" to fail, then he is certainly embracing it. kenny has failed to connect on a lot of opportunities he has had. i havent been keeping count but it seems to me like he has been averaging about 5 horrible  throws a game that even an average QB should be hitting. the pass blocking today was total shit, but didnt Ben still succeed with horrible pass protection for much of his career ? i stopped making excuse for pickett about 6 games ago. there is an old saying...if you're are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

I think he’s being told to go with his first read and being told not to or discouraged from freelancing (not that there’s much time anyway). Does he even look at the middle of the field or deep at all? No, I don’t think so, he’s just going with the first read - even if it’s not open. The guy was good last year, seemed to make good reads, looked people off, scrambled to buy time, that’s all gone. But he has done it, you don’t forget that stuff, but Canada is really straightjacketing this guy right now. That’s my take, I think he’s going to be really good if he gets better coaching or goes somewhere else where there is better coaching

Kenny may be below average or even bad. It is hard to know. Yeah, he is missing throws and has regressed this year...probably even regressed from early year until now. I do believe the coaching is enhancing his decline. I keep hearing Steelers fans wishing Dobbs was still here but in reality how would he be doing coached by this staff? I'm paraphrasing here, but after the game Tomlin said something along the lines of 'we were only a play or 2 short'. Really, you want to say that???!!!  Your QB just threw for 105 yds, your best offensive player carried the ball 9 times, a rookie QB marched down the field for the game winner after you mismanaged the clock at the end to save the clock for the Browns. Maybe he meant another 75 yd Warren run? I can see both sides of a debate like this, but I would like to see Kenny and the rest of the team managed by someone competent to get a better feel.

I think Tomlin is telling his coordinators let’s just do whatever it takes to win. I don’t think he’s particularly interested in the inefficiency of the offense - or the lack of Kenny’s passing yards or if Canada is handcuffing the young QB - Tomlin just wants the wins at any cost

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

Steeler-in-west wrote:

Kenny is being setup to fail, as Mitch was before him and Ben before that. Playcalling stinks. Canada is going to ruin our 1st round QB. Already half the fan base thinks it Kenny’s fault

IF he is being "setup" to fail, then he is certainly embracing it. kenny has failed to connect on a lot of opportunities he has had. i havent been keeping count but it seems to me like he has been averaging about 5 horrible  throws a game that even an average QB should be hitting. the pass blocking today was total shit, but didnt Ben still succeed with horrible pass protection for much of his career ? i stopped making excuse for pickett about 6 games ago. there is an old saying...if you're are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

I think we're in agreement that Canada needs to go. This next statement is not in defense of Canada. He isn't making bad throws. It's becoming painfully apparent that KP is not accurate enough to be a starter in this league. Now we have an average RB that all he does is run up his Olineman's ass, saying he's tired of this shit. Do something about it. Pick a different crease Najee. If Jaylen can find an opening you should be able to also.
We can't blame this loss on the defense or even STs. This one falls squarely on Tomlin.We play from behind week in and week out and if we do get the lead we slow down to let the other team catch up. Any other HC worth a damn would have at the very least lobbied for Canada to be replaced. I can't imagine Sullivan could do a worse job filling in for the remainder of the season.
Something I thought of when I was watching Garret set up shop in our backfield. Why not swap Moore with Jones for this game?

Bottom line: Cleveland's offense matched ours with ineptitude but with a backup QB.
Their defense spent the day in our backfield while ours didn't play well enough to bail out our shitshow.
The only "splash play" we saw was JW running to the house. Let's face it Najee could not have made that run because he's to damn slow and has questionable vision.
When he says he's tired of this shit does he mean his o-line performance,or the play calling or what? If so I get it. But...if the guy behind you on the depth chart is making chicken salad out of chicken shit and you are constantly getting dropped in the backfield because you have no vision you might want to STFU.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/ron-cook/2023/11/19/pickett-steelers-tomlin-browns-thompson-robinson/stories/202311200034

I honestly am starting to think the lack of passes over the middle of the field is due to the sporadic accuracy of KP. He can't hit guys running basic routes on the outside, and if he makes those same kinds of inaccurate passes over the middle defenses are going to intercept him. I think the coaches know that, and they are deliberately staying away from the middle of the field because of it. Maybe I'm wrong here, but it is bizarre how they just completely stay away from trying to throw the ball over the middle.

I mean we have players that have obviously shown how talented they are in the past. Players who've put up good stats in previous seasons. The common denominator here is Canada's scheme, and Pickett's lack of talent. I've seen enough of both now that I don't think they have it, and they never will.

Can someone please explain me why Warren only got 9 carries yesterday? And why he was ignored the last 5 minutes? He was the only positive on offense and he didn't get the ball enough, especially at the end. Who's responsible for this? I this Canada's call or Tomlin's or both?

Stella Nation wrote:

Can someone please explain me why Warren only got 9 carries yesterday? And why he was ignored the last 5 minutes? He was the only positive on offense and he didn't get the ball enough, especially at the end. Who's responsible for this? I this Canada's call or Tomlin's or both?

Explanation = Mike Tomlin + Matt Canada + Kenny Pickett = Shitshow

Big Ben adding a little color commentating...

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/11/i-am-so-confused-ben-roethlisberger-reacts-to-steelers-final-offensive-drive/

It's Canada's offense and Picketts accuracy issues combined. Mix in guys like Moore and Cole getting destroyed in pass protection and not doing any better in run blocking.

Canada is terrified to utilize the entire field. That may be because he doesn't trust his QB but when an opposing defense knows you won't well it makes things a lot easier to defend against.

The Browns stacked the box and dared Canada and Pickett to try and beat them with some passing. Canada killed that repeatedly by having Kenny go back to passing behind the line of scrimmage or 2 yard throws to the outside and check downs to the RBs.

Pickett doesn't have confidence at this point. His passing is getting worse on easy throws. His communication with WRs is obviously off. He isn't picking up on open receivers when he does have time because he doesn't trust his Oline to protect him.

The communication issues between Canada/Tomlin/Pickett and called time outs have been an issue as well. I think Tomlin is putting in his ideas against what Canada is calling and instead of plays getting in quickly its a 3 way debate.

For all the talk of Tomlin "not playing in thier fears" this current rendition of the Steelers Offense is obviously terrified to play modern NFL Offense and they won't win shit until someone  comes in and does something about it.

Remember when everyone was so happy to have Friermuth back? Boy he sure was a game changer for us... lol

LambertWardSteel wrote:

Steeler-in-west wrote:

Master_Of_Puppets wrote:

Steeler-in-west wrote:

Kenny is being setup to fail, as Mitch was before him and Ben before that. Playcalling stinks. Canada is going to ruin our 1st round QB. Already half the fan base thinks it Kenny’s fault

IF he is being "setup" to fail, then he is certainly embracing it. kenny has failed to connect on a lot of opportunities he has had. i havent been keeping count but it seems to me like he has been averaging about 5 horrible  throws a game that even an average QB should be hitting. the pass blocking today was total shit, but didnt Ben still succeed with horrible pass protection for much of his career ? i stopped making excuse for pickett about 6 games ago. there is an old saying...if you're are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

I think he’s being told to go with his first read and being told not to or discouraged from freelancing (not that there’s much time anyway). Does he even look at the middle of the field or deep at all? No, I don’t think so, he’s just going with the first read - even if it’s not open. The guy was good last year, seemed to make good reads, looked people off, scrambled to buy time, that’s all gone. But he has done it, you don’t forget that stuff, but Canada is really straightjacketing this guy right now. That’s my take, I think he’s going to be really good if he gets better coaching or goes somewhere else where there is better coaching

Kenny may be below average or even bad. It is hard to know. Yeah, he is missing throws and has regressed this year...probably even regressed from early year until now. I do believe the coaching is enhancing his decline. I keep hearing Steelers fans wishing Dobbs was still here but in reality how would he be doing coached by this staff? I'm paraphrasing here, but after the game Tomlin said something along the lines of 'we were only a play or 2 short'. Really, you want to say that???!!!  Your QB just threw for 105 yds, your best offensive player carried the ball 9 times, a rookie QB marched down the field for the game winner after you mismanaged the clock at the end to save the clock for the Browns. Maybe he meant another 75 yd Warren run? I can see both sides of a debate like this, but I would like to see Kenny and the rest of the team managed by someone competent to get a better feel.

I was thinking a large part of KP's struggles were Canada's fault and now I think Ben in his prime would have threatened to quit if they didn't FIRE CANADA. We need an NFL caliber OC to coach an NFL caliber QB. I'm not sure KP fits the bill. We can't compare him to Ben but we're not seeing any improvement in his play. The ones who want to praise him are saying he's not turning the ball over. Sure, if you don't throw the ball much and don't at least try to stretch the field and half of your throws are untouchable by anyone you can sugar coat it all you want but it looks like we need to either draft another QB or be stuck in mediocrity. Too soon? Maybe but are we gonna wait until Tomlin has his first losing season. That would be devastating if he were to be exposed. This is why I'm not a fan of the Rooney rule. I think a HC should be hired for his qualifications. Skin color or ethnicity should have Nothing to do with it. The whole process should be color blind.

LambertWardSteel wrote:

Najee in postgame interview from Post Gazette article:

Quote :

Was he surprised the Steelers didn’t run on the final drive?

“That’s a good question,” he said. “Next question.”


Does it seem like other teams know what’s coming?

“Yeah, in some situations, to be honest with you,” he said.

Najee Harris on Steelers offense: 'I'm at a point where I'm just tired of this'

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2023/11/19/cleveland-browns-matt-canada-kenny-pickett-diontae-johnson-mike-tomlin-george-pickens/stories/202311150152

While Najee (sometimes) sucks on the field, he's at least telling the thruth. Hopefully someone listens now or if not he will at least lose more snaps to Warren because Tomlin won't like what he said.

Regarding Dobbs, it's clear to see he would be running to pick up first downs, using his mobility to open up receivers, and making things happen. Would he be as effective in the Steelers current system? Probably not. He's more successful in the Vikings system than he was in the Cardinals system. But he would be an immediate upgrade at QB for us. But I've been talking about Dobbs for years, I always liked him and thought he was a guy we should have held onto. In fact, when Ben retired, I thought they should have turned the reins over to him.

Kenny at one point was making the same kinds of plays. End of last year, he was extremely effective and gave us a lot to be excited about. What has happened? Can't just blame Canada, either. Kenny is badly missing throws - easy throws. Nothing Matt can do about that. I keep hoping that Kenny will get his mojo back.

I have a good friend who is a sports psychologist - one of the best in the business. It's amazing the difference your mindset can make. Hopefully Kenny will seek someone out that can help him fulfil his potential. He is definitely playing under his potential at this point.

It's time to blow up the entire coaching staff. The root of the problems start there.

Stella Nation wrote:

Can someone please explain me why Warren only got 9 carries yesterday? And why he was ignored the last 5 minutes? He was the only positive on offense and he didn't get the ball enough, especially at the end. Who's responsible for this? I this Canada's call or Tomlin's or both?

Even if you take away his 74 yd run he still averaged 6.8 ypc with 3 catches on 3 targets for an additional 16.
Najee averaged 2.9 ypc with 1 catch 3 targets for 1 yard.
It must be part of the new standard? Tomlin is building back better.

Stella Nation wrote:

LambertWardSteel wrote:

Najee in postgame interview from Post Gazette article:

Quote :

Was he surprised the Steelers didn’t run on the final drive?

“That’s a good question,” he said. “Next question.”


Does it seem like other teams know what’s coming?

“Yeah, in some situations, to be honest with you,” he said.

Najee Harris on Steelers offense: 'I'm at a point where I'm just tired of this'

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2023/11/19/cleveland-browns-matt-canada-kenny-pickett-diontae-johnson-mike-tomlin-george-pickens/stories/202311150152

While Najee (sometimes) sucks on the field, he's at least telling the thruth. Hopefully someone listens now or if not he will at least lose more snaps to Warren because Tomlin won't like what he said.

Najee doesn't suck he is being hit 3 yards behind the line or his blockers are getting pushed back into the backfield. It's happening to Warren to. Najee on occasion hasn't hit the holes as fast as Warren but he is still a quality RB the problem is the Oline isn't consistently blocking well for them.

It's what happens when you have a back up Center as your starter and a 4th round LT. They can't do much up the middle or to the left. The only success they are having running the ball is to the right and defenses are adjusting to it.

The Browns have the #1 Defense in the League. I know we hate saying it but they were supposed to stuff our run game. Kenny needed to step up and help put up some points and him, Canada, and Tomlin didn't get it done.

Kenny Pickett is not the franchise QB. He is unable to make simple axcurate passes on a regular basis and its drive killing. Put in Canada's  poor simplistic  offensive system with basic route trees and you have what you have consistently gotten the last 3 years. One of the worst offenses in the League. This isn't shocking its been that way its going to stay that way.

I am stunned this team isn't 2-7 or 1-8 honestly. Our Defense is pretty atrocious its banged up and injury ridden but even when it was it wasn't doing well.

Tomlin lives and plays in his fears. They might squeeze out a few more wins but the blue print to beat this team is obvious. Stack the box, stuff the run, and make KP try to beat you with his arm. He has done it a few times but teams with a solid front 7 sending blitzes have beaten him. His accuracy issues are obvious and at this point there is no fixing that. He isn't some 21 year old project player with a ton of upside and potential. What you see is what you get with him and he isn't a QB that is going to put a team on his back and go out and get you a lot of TDs to win.

A solid read with quality analysis


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/steelers-rb-najee-harris-vents-his-frustration-about-offense-after-loss-to-browns-im-tired-of-this-s/amp/

Kenny has really lost the fan base the last couple games and it'll be tough for him to get it back. I do believe the coaching has some to do with his failings but this in large part comes down to him.The o-line is not helping matters either. He is not the QB they envisioned, or the fans hoped he'd be. The big selling point Tomlin and company gave after the draft was that they'd been able to watch him closely at Pitt. It doesn't fill me with a lot of hope of finding a bona fide long term QB if they thought he was franchise. I also have a hard time believing team Tomlin is going to give up on him after 2 years and look for a better solution.

LambertWardSteel wrote:

Kenny has really lost the fan base the last couple games and it'll be tough for him to get it back. I do believe the coaching has some to do with his failings but this in large part comes down to him.The o-line is not helping matters either. He is not the QB they envisioned, or the fans hoped he'd be. The big selling point Tomlin and company gave after the draft was that they'd been able to watch him closely at Pitt. It doesn't fill me with a lot of hope of finding a bona fide long term QB if they thought he was franchise. I also have a hard time believing team Tomlin is going to give up on him after 2 years and look for a better solution.

First things first... you want to be a team that dominates in the run? Better build a solid Oline to make that happen. Cole needs to be relegated to back up status. Moore has to be made a backup. Move Jones to LT go out and get a Center and RT either in the draft or FA. Got to shore up that Oline first. The rest has to wait. You can't go out and get a franchise QB and tell him to win with a shitty Oline. The Steelers want to run the football first and foremost. They want to play the possession game but up to this point have done everything ass backwards to be successful at it.

We lost Villanueva, Foster, Pouncey, and DeCastro in the span of 3 years and did not prepare for it properly or adjust to it accordingly.

The QB issue has to wait until the Oline issue is addressed or you will just ruin a young QB.

Ugh...to think that a couple of months ago I thought this team was going to be really good

vasteeler wrote:

Ugh...to think that a couple of months ago I thought this team was going to be really good

They had a lot of fans optimistic. I was one of them too. Been a fan too long to not keep the realist glasses on though...

“We are going to have a talk after this one as a team,” Harris said. “That’s the best way to say it. Just all of us. Offense, I think. You can look at the record and still say we are good right now. … I look at it like, ‘How long is this s— going to last?’ You all can look at it like it is a good record, but this is the NFL. Winning how we did isn’t going to get us nowhere. Yes we have a good record but, like …” -Najee Harris

I commend him on speaking up. He sees a lot fo what's happening and he deserves to speak his mind. At least he is showing some passion. The Browns where sitting there waiting for those 4 or 5 screens they tried to throw his way... they knew what was coming.

vasteeler wrote:

Ugh...to think that a couple of months ago I thought this team was going to be really good

You and I both

SteelerFreak58 wrote:

“We are going to have a talk after this one as a team,” Harris said. “That’s the best way to say it. Just all of us. Offense, I think. You can look at the record and still say we are good right now. … I look at it like, ‘How long is this s— going to last?’ You all can look at it like it is a good record, but this is the NFL. Winning how we did isn’t going to get us nowhere. Yes we have a good record but, like …” -Najee Harris

I commend him on speaking up. He sees a lot fo what's happening and he deserves to speak his mind. At least he is showing some passion. The Browns where sitting there waiting for those 4 or 5 screens they tried to throw his way... they knew what was coming.

Yeah, I agree. It shows some leadership. I wonder if Tomlin handles it the same way as he did with Okoroafor.