Bengals DC: Burfict Doesn’t Understand Thug Reputation

Cincinnati Bengals defensive coordinator Paul Guenther spoke Friday, discussing a potential future coaching spot for beleagured Bengals linebacker Vontaze Burfict, once again taking a position defending his player’s behavior:

“Everybody thinks he’s this thug, and he doesn’t understand this,” Guenther said. “I think it’s awful. The way he’s being perceived right now is terrible. I feel terrible for the kid.”
Keep in mind, the word “thug” is Guenther’s choice of words; one that might be insensitive in this era. What I think Guenther wanted to say, but wouldn’t, is “dirty player.” And he (nor Burfict) understand why Burfict is considered a dirty player.

I understand it completely fine, but Guenther continues, talking about Burfict’s hit on a defenseless Antonio Brown, one that concussed the Steelers star WR and rendered him out for the team’s following Divisional Playoff game against the Denver Broncos:

“If he wanted to kill that guy… he could’ve really killed him. But he didn’t… I guess he’s gotta aim lower. I guess I gotta teach it different.”
He guesses… Burfict guesses his play needs to change as well:

Read More: http://www.steelcityunderground.com/2016/02/26/bengals-dc-burfict-doesnt-understand-thug-reputation/

give me a fuckin break he's just playing stupid. even he's not that dumb

if trying to ankle lock someone after a tackle isn't thug behavior what is?

I get Burfict being in denial about this - he is a sociopathic fool

The coaching staff is another matter - Guenther guesses he needs to stop coaching his players to deliver head shots?

The Bengals keeping their current coaching staff together, from Marvin on down, guarantees they will keep screwing up

Bungles... Lol

I do not care what this fucker says. In this world, there are those you can talk to, those you have to scream at, and then those who need to get smacked right in the nose. Burfect needs to be taken out and taken out BAD. If I was a Steeler, I would make it my mission if i was on offense to end his year completely. Period.

Atlanta Dan wrote:

I get Burfict being in denial about this - he is a sociopathic fool

The coaching staff is another matter - Guenther guesses he needs to stop coaching his players to deliver head shots?  

The Bengals keeping their current coaching staff together, from Marvin on down, guarantees they will keep screwing up

Agreed Dan. They have a culture of thuggism going on in Cincy. There's no way most coaches in the league would condone, or even make excuses for the behavior this guy has had on the field. I can almost see this d-bag-coach shrug in response to some of the questions he's received. The real moron here isn't Burfict, although I do think Underground was too generous in his hypothesis that Burfict is intelligence due a record of attendance at AZU, but the moron is Guenther. This attitude is similar in nature to what we saw out of Deflategate from the Boston crowd. Anyone not a die-hard fan of your team knows you're full of sh!t and come across as a class A azzho!e every time you try to make excuses for or deny what all NFL fans across the world know to be true. How about this as a response to Burfict being a thug: "Look, Vontaze brings a lot of passion to the game of football. Really, I'd much rather be in a position where I'm asking my players to tone it down a notch rather than have a team that is meek and plays tentatively. And Vontaze is the first to admit that he needs to adjust his game given the rules in place. He's got kids to feed (this may or may not be true). That's real life. Paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and facing suspensions isn't putting clothes on V.B. Jr's rear end. It's my job to help channel Vontaze's passion and ensure we don't back it down. But focus it into play on the field that does not result in flags, fines or suspensions." Not too hard, is it Geunther?

OX1947 wrote:

I do not care what this fucker says. In this world, there are those you can talk to, those you have to scream at, and then those who need to get smacked right in the nose. Burfect needs to be taken out and taken out BAD. If I was a Steeler, I would make it my mission if i was on offense to end his year completely. Period.

IMO the Ravens are more likely to impose football justice - the hit on the Ravens receiver in week 17 was just as egregious and Goodell as well as the announcers will be ready to drop the hammer on any Steeler who takes out Burfict

some may say James Harrison played the same way. or, because you like him and he is a Steeler he isn't a Thug?

steelers5895 wrote:

some may say James Harrison played the same way.  or, because you like him and he is a Steeler he isn't a Thug?  

Never saw James Harrison twist someone's ankles nor celebrate an injury nor headshot a receiver on the backside of the play. And James Harrison's knock out of Mohamed Massaquoi was very different from Burfict's hit on Brown. Harrison came in at waist level and Massaquoi ducked down into the hit ... causing the helmet-to-helmet contact (still a fine but not intentional). Burfict intentionally delivered a blow to Brown's head. But we'll sit back and listen to the Steelers haters draw the comparisons.

kirklandrules wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

some may say James Harrison played the same way.  or, because you like him and he is a Steeler he isn't a Thug?  

Never saw James Harrison twist someone's ankles nor celebrate an injury nor headshot a receiver on the backside of the play. And James Harrison's knock out of Mohamed Massaquoi was very different from Burfict's hit on Brown. Harrison came in at waist level and Massaquoi ducked down into the hit ... causing the helmet-to-helmet contact (still a fine but not intentional). Burfict intentionally delivered a blow to Brown's head. But we'll sit back and listen to the Steelers haters draw the comparisons.

that's the lens a steeler fan would look through. im not saying Harrison did what Burlict did BUT he did some messed up intentional stuff. BUT, he is a steeler so its ok and can get swept under the rug. funny, the NFL thought along the lines I do.

Meh its Cincy Burfict and PacMan can keep playing that way it helped us get deeper into the playoffs! Which honestly we didn't deserve if you stop and think about it!

Atlanta Dan wrote:

I get Burfict being in denial about this - he is a sociopathic fool

The coaching staff is another matter - Guenther guesses he needs to stop coaching his players to deliver head shots?  

The Bengals keeping their current coaching staff together, from Marvin on down, guarantees they will keep screwing up

I think everyone is too hard on Burfict...he clearly showed after the hit he only used his shoulder to chest

You can't argue with consistency. Marv and crew have a dynasty of sorts by Pats* fans standards because to them just making it is enough...winning is irrelevant. Marv and his cast of misfits have coached 5 straight one and outs Dynasty

steelers5895 wrote:

kirklandrules wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

some may say James Harrison played the same way.  or, because you like him and he is a Steeler he isn't a Thug?  

Never saw James Harrison twist someone's ankles nor celebrate an injury nor headshot a receiver on the backside of the play. And James Harrison's knock out of Mohamed Massaquoi was very different from Burfict's hit on Brown. Harrison came in at waist level and Massaquoi ducked down into the hit ... causing the helmet-to-helmet contact (still a fine but not intentional). Burfict intentionally delivered a blow to Brown's head. But we'll sit back and listen to the Steelers haters draw the comparisons.

that's the lens a steeler fan would look through.  im not saying Harrison did what Burlict did BUT he did some messed up intentional stuff.  BUT, he is a steeler so its ok and can get swept under the rug.  funny, the NFL thought along the lines I do.

There's no sweeping it under the rug. Harrison was fined over $100k for his rough play. The difference isn't that I'm a Steelers fan. The difference is Harrison continued to play the way he always had, his entire life, and didn't change with the rule changes. Burfict has been fined for dirty play, often against players not actively holding the football (ie: Brown, Maxx Williams, DeCastro, Cam Newton, etc, etc). As far as I can remember, Harrison was never fined for plays against a non-participant. He never spit in a players face, twisted ankles, etc. Harrison hasn't been fined in several years because he finally changed his play to fit the rules. Burfict, as Underground points out, spent his entire career playing under these rules. There's no reason he needed to try to change his style as he should have already been playing within the rules. And the rules he's breaking aren't just incidental head shots or landing on top of a QB. He's twisting ankels. He's a thug. Harrison is tough. Big difference.  You might have to give an example of Harrison's "messed up intentional stuff" because I'm not recalling anything that can't be considered tough football. As opposed to Burfict's very obvious dirty play ... that I've listed several examples of.

Here's something for everyone to look at. Harrison's hit on Massaquoi. Note how Massaquoi is ducking down into the hit and Harrison is coming in at waist level.



And here's Burfict's hit on Brown. Although Brown isn't standing perfectly straight, you can see Burfict launch through his head, up high:



You're insinuating that Harrison is dirty and that the NFL agrees. Not true. The NFL has never accused Harrison of being dirty. They fined him and accused him of not playing within the changed rules, always against a player that was part of the play.

kirklandrules wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

kirklandrules wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

some may say James Harrison played the same way.  or, because you like him and he is a Steeler he isn't a Thug?  

Never saw James Harrison twist someone's ankles nor celebrate an injury nor headshot a receiver on the backside of the play. And James Harrison's knock out of Mohamed Massaquoi was very different from Burfict's hit on Brown. Harrison came in at waist level and Massaquoi ducked down into the hit ... causing the helmet-to-helmet contact (still a fine but not intentional). Burfict intentionally delivered a blow to Brown's head. But we'll sit back and listen to the Steelers haters draw the comparisons.

that's the lens a steeler fan would look through.  im not saying Harrison did what Burlict did BUT he did some messed up intentional stuff.  BUT, he is a steeler so its ok and can get swept under the rug.  funny, the NFL thought along the lines I do.

There's no sweeping it under the rug. Harrison was fined over $100k for his rough play. The difference isn't that I'm a Steelers fan. The difference is Harrison continued to play the way he always had, his entire life, and didn't change with the rule changes. Burfict has been fined for dirty play, often against players not actively holding the football (ie: Brown, Maxx Williams, DeCastro, Cam Newton, etc, etc). As far as I can remember, Harrison was never fined for plays against a non-participant. He never spit in a players face, twisted ankles, etc. Harrison hasn't been fined in several years because he finally changed his play to fit the rules. Burfict, as Underground points out, spent his entire career playing under these rules. There's no reason he needed to try to change his style as he should have already been playing within the rules. And the rules he's breaking aren't just incidental head shots or landing on top of a QB. He's twisting ankels. He's a thug. Harrison is tough. Big difference.  You might have to give an example of Harrison's "messed up intentional stuff" because I'm not recalling anything that can't be considered tough football. As opposed to Burfict's very obvious dirty play ... that I've listed several examples of.

Here's something for everyone to look at. Harrison's hit on Massaquoi. Note how Massaquoi is ducking down into the hit and Harrison is coming in at waist level.



And here's Burfict's hit on Brown. Although Brown isn't standing perfectly straight, you can see Burfict launch through his head, up high:



You're insinuating that Harrison is dirty and that the NFL agrees. Not true. The NFL has never accused Harrison of being dirty. They fined him and accused him of not playing within the changed rules, always against a player that was part of the play.

But functioning eyes, common sense, and facts don't matter, damn it!

steelers5895 wrote:

some may say James Harrison played the same way.  or, because you like him and he is a Steeler he isn't a Thug?  

No, he did not play the same way. Harrison didnt tackle a guy then knee him on the ground all covert ops like. That piece of shit is deliberately trying to end seasons.

I DO look at it theough the eyes of a Steelers fan, moreso a Harrison fan. I got this taste of candy and bacon in my mouth when I saw the Colt McCoy hit.

That entire organization is a joke from the top down. The fact that they just shrug off this behavior, instead of taking some form or another of personal accountability just shows that there is a total lack of character throughout the organization and that this lack of character is part of their culture. So much so, that they are blind to the fact that twisting ankles, spitting on people, kneeing injured players on the ground, and blasting other players with illegal hits to the head is dirty, thuggish behavior.

If anything of this nature occurs in the future again with any of their players, the player should be immediately suspended, and the organization itself should be fined. Perhaps that would prompt them to clean up their act a little more. That culture of denial and scapegoating makes me sick.

Some draw comparisons between Harrison and Burfict. Burfict is a straight up dirty thug with a history of on the field dirty play dating all the way back to his high school years. It's well documented in video form, and from the words of the very players he victimized. Harrison plays the game hard, between the whistles but you don't see him pulling the extracurricular garbage, and Harrison adjusted his playstyle accordingly. Burfict refuses to acknowledge he's even done anything wrong at all. It doesn't help when his coaches try to paint him like the innocent victim, being picked on by Steelers fans, and the sports media...

Buddha Bus wrote:

But functioning eyes, common sense, and facts don't matter, damn it!

The world's going to hell in a handbasket

what you are saying is because Harrison didn't twist knees and spit (that we know of), it wasn't dirty play on his part? Harrison intentionally went after heads to knock people out of games and shrugged it off by saying " I could have went at their knees". Harrison was a head hunter and the flags and fines back that up. The thuggery was different but still thuggery.

He didn't stop the hits until he got sick of paying the fines.

steelers5895 wrote:

what you are saying is because Harrison didn't twist knees and spit (that we know of), it wasn't dirty play on his part?  Harrison intentionally went after heads to knock people out of games and shrugged it off by saying " I could have went at their knees".  Harrison was a head hunter and the flags and fines back that up.  The thuggery was different but still thuggery.

He didn't stop the hits until he got sick of paying the fines.

IMO, I think you're assessment of Harrison's play is quite different than my own.

Harrison played the game of football the way he was trained to play the game of football. Violently, but within the rules he knew. It wasn't until Roger Goodell changed the rules of football that Harrison's hits warranted a flag and/or fine. To Harrison's point (which he made to Roger Goodell), he can't change his trajectory based on where the WR may move or not move. This in essence is the rule which was instituted. The defensive player is now, essentially, responsible for the forward movement of the receiver. He can no longer play the ball or the player, but instead he needs to comfort them to the ground. In a high speed game, with high speed collisions, this is nearly impossible. I implore you to try it yourself. Set up a tackling dummy with his mid-section open for collision (easy to hit isn't it). Now have the tackling dummy scrunch up to brace for impact, now make every effort to not make contact with their head (I'm sure youtube has plenty of videos on WR movement for you perfect the WR scrunching movement). A bit more difficult?

Harrison never twisted ankles or made any other violent actions after the hit and/or tackle.

Burfict intentionally twisted ankles and made physical contacts after the tackle.

While there is a fine line between being a thug and playing a violent sport within the rules, Harrison was within the rules. Burfict flat out played outside the lines.

steelers5895 wrote:

kirklandrules wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

some may say James Harrison played the same way.  or, because you like him and he is a Steeler he isn't a Thug?  

Never saw James Harrison twist someone's ankles nor celebrate an injury nor headshot a receiver on the backside of the play. And James Harrison's knock out of Mohamed Massaquoi was very different from Burfict's hit on Brown. Harrison came in at waist level and Massaquoi ducked down into the hit ... causing the helmet-to-helmet contact (still a fine but not intentional). Burfict intentionally delivered a blow to Brown's head. But we'll sit back and listen to the Steelers haters draw the comparisons.

that's the lens a steeler fan would look through.  im not saying Harrison did what Burlict did BUT he did some messed up intentional stuff.  BUT, he is a steeler so its ok and can get swept under the rug.  funny, the NFL thought along the lines I do.

You need to clean your lens....it's a bit cloudy.  

stlrtruck wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

what you are saying is because Harrison didn't twist knees and spit (that we know of), it wasn't dirty play on his part?  Harrison intentionally went after heads to knock people out of games and shrugged it off by saying " I could have went at their knees".  Harrison was a head hunter and the flags and fines back that up.  The thuggery was different but still thuggery.

He didn't stop the hits until he got sick of paying the fines.

IMO, I think you're assessment of Harrison's play is quite different than my own.

Harrison played the game of football the way he was trained to play the game of football.  Violently, but within the rules he knew.  It wasn't until Roger Goodell changed the rules of football that Harrison's hits warranted a flag and/or fine.  To Harrison's point (which he made to Roger Goodell), he can't change his trajectory based on where the WR may move or not move.  This in essence is the rule which was instituted.  The defensive player is now, essentially, responsible for the forward movement of the receiver.  He can no longer play the ball or the player, but instead he needs to comfort them to the ground.  In a high speed game, with high speed collisions, this is nearly impossible.  I implore you to try it yourself.  Set up a tackling dummy with his mid-section open for collision (easy to hit isn't it).  Now have the tackling dummy scrunch up to brace for impact, now make every effort to not make contact with their head (I'm sure youtube has plenty of videos on WR movement for you perfect the WR scrunching movement).  A bit more difficult?

Harrison never twisted ankles or made any other violent actions after the hit and/or tackle.

Burfict intentionally twisted ankles and made physical contacts after the tackle.

While there is a fine line between being a thug and playing a violent sport within the rules, Harrison was within the rules.  Burfict flat out played outside the lines.

kinda like the hit on Brown then?  no?  you are minimizing what Harrison did.  he was a head hunter.  a slew of significantly late hit on QBs, none of which are new rules but lack of self control.  he continually led with his helmet instead of his shoulder in just about every fine. look at the McCoy hit. you mean he couldn't have led with his shoulder? don't need a tackling dummy test for that.

steelers5895 wrote:

stlrtruck wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

what you are saying is because Harrison didn't twist knees and spit (that we know of), it wasn't dirty play on his part?  Harrison intentionally went after heads to knock people out of games and shrugged it off by saying " I could have went at their knees".  Harrison was a head hunter and the flags and fines back that up.  The thuggery was different but still thuggery.

He didn't stop the hits until he got sick of paying the fines.

IMO, I think you're assessment of Harrison's play is quite different than my own.

Harrison played the game of football the way he was trained to play the game of football.  Violently, but within the rules he knew.  It wasn't until Roger Goodell changed the rules of football that Harrison's hits warranted a flag and/or fine.  To Harrison's point (which he made to Roger Goodell), he can't change his trajectory based on where the WR may move or not move.  This in essence is the rule which was instituted.  The defensive player is now, essentially, responsible for the forward movement of the receiver.  He can no longer play the ball or the player, but instead he needs to comfort them to the ground.  In a high speed game, with high speed collisions, this is nearly impossible.  I implore you to try it yourself.  Set up a tackling dummy with his mid-section open for collision (easy to hit isn't it).  Now have the tackling dummy scrunch up to brace for impact, now make every effort to not make contact with their head (I'm sure youtube has plenty of videos on WR movement for you perfect the WR scrunching movement).  A bit more difficult?

Harrison never twisted ankles or made any other violent actions after the hit and/or tackle.

Burfict intentionally twisted ankles and made physical contacts after the tackle.

While there is a fine line between being a thug and playing a violent sport within the rules, Harrison was within the rules.  Burfict flat out played outside the lines.

kinda like the hit on Brown then?  no?  you are minimizing what Harrison did.  he was a head hunter.  a slew of significantly late hit on QBs, none of which are new rules but lack of self control.  he continually led with his helmet instead of his shoulder in just about every fine.  look at the McCoy hit.  you mean he couldn't have led with his shoulder?  don't need a tackling dummy test for that.  

He wasn't fined for a slue of late hits on QBs. He was fined for making contact with QB's helmets, which used to be legal. He was also fined for landing on top of a QB while making a sack, which was horsesh!t.

And the McCoy hit. The rule states that a QB who tucks the ball and is out of the pocket can be treated like a running back. McCoy was scrambling out of the pocket with the ball tucked. Just before Harrison made contact, he flipped the ball toward a receiver. The officials, and the league decided McCoy was transformed from a RB back into a QB in that split second and Harrison should have changed his hit.

You are correct, that most of his fines were due to leading with his helmet. Something that was legal and the way football was taught and played for most of Harrison's playing days. And even when he was attempting to avoid the helmet to helmet collisions, he was fined. If it's right to call Harrison dirty because of that, I have the right to call every player (pee wee, high school, college and NFL) who played prior to 2010 and made contact with their helmet a thug.

Burfict changed his angle of pursuit to hit a receiver, who didn't have the ball, high in the head. You're trying to compare that to the plays Harrison made that were borderline, for the most part, and he has largely avoided the past few years because he changed his play.

Here's an article I wrote a handful of years ago that speaks to Harrison's issues. Read that, then tell me how I'm a homer and Harrison is a thug.

http://www.steelersxtreme.com/t2211-the-harrison-problem-xtreme-commentary

if the hits were legal why wasn't just about every player fined and suspended like Harrison? why weren't other players using the crown of their helmet to the extent Harrison did? he chose to play that way time after time. to me, that is where the thug aspect comes in.

kirklandrules wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

stlrtruck wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

what you are saying is because Harrison didn't twist knees and spit (that we know of), it wasn't dirty play on his part?  Harrison intentionally went after heads to knock people out of games and shrugged it off by saying " I could have went at their knees".  Harrison was a head hunter and the flags and fines back that up.  The thuggery was different but still thuggery.

He didn't stop the hits until he got sick of paying the fines.

IMO, I think you're assessment of Harrison's play is quite different than my own.

Harrison played the game of football the way he was trained to play the game of football.  Violently, but within the rules he knew.  It wasn't until Roger Goodell changed the rules of football that Harrison's hits warranted a flag and/or fine.  To Harrison's point (which he made to Roger Goodell), he can't change his trajectory based on where the WR may move or not move.  This in essence is the rule which was instituted.  The defensive player is now, essentially, responsible for the forward movement of the receiver.  He can no longer play the ball or the player, but instead he needs to comfort them to the ground.  In a high speed game, with high speed collisions, this is nearly impossible.  I implore you to try it yourself.  Set up a tackling dummy with his mid-section open for collision (easy to hit isn't it).  Now have the tackling dummy scrunch up to brace for impact, now make every effort to not make contact with their head (I'm sure youtube has plenty of videos on WR movement for you perfect the WR scrunching movement).  A bit more difficult?

Harrison never twisted ankles or made any other violent actions after the hit and/or tackle.

Burfict intentionally twisted ankles and made physical contacts after the tackle.

While there is a fine line between being a thug and playing a violent sport within the rules, Harrison was within the rules.  Burfict flat out played outside the lines.

kinda like the hit on Brown then?  no?  you are minimizing what Harrison did.  he was a head hunter.  a slew of significantly late hit on QBs, none of which are new rules but lack of self control.  he continually led with his helmet instead of his shoulder in just about every fine.  look at the McCoy hit.  you mean he couldn't have led with his shoulder?  don't need a tackling dummy test for that.  

He wasn't fined for a slue of late hits on QBs. He was fined for making contact with QB's helmets, which used to be legal. He was also fined for landing on top of a QB while making a sack, which was horsesh!t.

And the McCoy hit. The rule states that a QB who tucks the ball and is out of the pocket can be treated like a running back. McCoy was scrambling out of the pocket with the ball tucked. Just before Harrison made contact, he flipped the ball toward a receiver. The officials, and the league decided McCoy was transformed from a RB back into a QB in that split second and Harrison should have changed his hit.

You are correct, that most of his fines were due to leading with his helmet. Something that was legal and the way football was taught and played for most of Harrison's playing days. And even when he was attempting to avoid the helmet to helmet collisions, he was fined. If it's right to call Harrison dirty because of that, I have the right to call every player (pee wee, high school, college and NFL) who played prior to 2010 and made contact with their helmet a thug.

Burfict changed his angle of pursuit to hit a receiver, who didn't have the ball, high in the head. You're trying to compare that to the plays Harrison made that were borderline, for the most part, and he has largely avoided the past few years because he changed his play.

Here's an article I wrote a handful of years ago that speaks to Harrison's issues. Read that, then tell me how I'm a homer and Harrison is a thug.

http://www.steelersxtreme.com/t2211-the-harrison-problem-xtreme-commentary

He's not listening to you. Lol.

I've seen some nasty hits. Some from Harrison, some from Ryan Clark, some from other players from other positions from other teams (shocker), and some from Burfict.

The reason why Burfict gets special attention is because his attitude extends beyond bang bang football plays. Spitting is thuggish. Kneeing shoulders is thuggish. Twisting ankles is thuggish. Jawing off and celebrating and instigating is thuggish. Harrison is not these things, even if he hits like a train. Mike Mitchell is closer to what thuggish can be like on the Steelers roster.