Bengals DC: Burfict Doesn’t Understand Thug Reputation

no I hear loud and clear, you guys are dismissing Harrison's intent. he intended to hurt a player just in a different way. everyone else on occasion had an illegal hit but harrison continually did it when he didn't have to. congrats to him for not twisting someone's ankle.

intent guys

KeepHarrisonTilHes92 wrote:

kirklandrules wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

stlrtruck wrote:

steelers5895 wrote:

what you are saying is because Harrison didn't twist knees and spit (that we know of), it wasn't dirty play on his part?  Harrison intentionally went after heads to knock people out of games and shrugged it off by saying " I could have went at their knees".  Harrison was a head hunter and the flags and fines back that up.  The thuggery was different but still thuggery.

He didn't stop the hits until he got sick of paying the fines.

IMO, I think you're assessment of Harrison's play is quite different than my own.

Harrison played the game of football the way he was trained to play the game of football.  Violently, but within the rules he knew.  It wasn't until Roger Goodell changed the rules of football that Harrison's hits warranted a flag and/or fine.  To Harrison's point (which he made to Roger Goodell), he can't change his trajectory based on where the WR may move or not move.  This in essence is the rule which was instituted.  The defensive player is now, essentially, responsible for the forward movement of the receiver.  He can no longer play the ball or the player, but instead he needs to comfort them to the ground.  In a high speed game, with high speed collisions, this is nearly impossible.  I implore you to try it yourself.  Set up a tackling dummy with his mid-section open for collision (easy to hit isn't it).  Now have the tackling dummy scrunch up to brace for impact, now make every effort to not make contact with their head (I'm sure youtube has plenty of videos on WR movement for you perfect the WR scrunching movement).  A bit more difficult?

Harrison never twisted ankles or made any other violent actions after the hit and/or tackle.

Burfict intentionally twisted ankles and made physical contacts after the tackle.

While there is a fine line between being a thug and playing a violent sport within the rules, Harrison was within the rules.  Burfict flat out played outside the lines.

kinda like the hit on Brown then?  no?  you are minimizing what Harrison did.  he was a head hunter.  a slew of significantly late hit on QBs, none of which are new rules but lack of self control.  he continually led with his helmet instead of his shoulder in just about every fine.  look at the McCoy hit.  you mean he couldn't have led with his shoulder?  don't need a tackling dummy test for that.  

He wasn't fined for a slue of late hits on QBs. He was fined for making contact with QB's helmets, which used to be legal. He was also fined for landing on top of a QB while making a sack, which was horsesh!t.

And the McCoy hit. The rule states that a QB who tucks the ball and is out of the pocket can be treated like a running back. McCoy was scrambling out of the pocket with the ball tucked. Just before Harrison made contact, he flipped the ball toward a receiver. The officials, and the league decided McCoy was transformed from a RB back into a QB in that split second and Harrison should have changed his hit.

You are correct, that most of his fines were due to leading with his helmet. Something that was legal and the way football was taught and played for most of Harrison's playing days. And even when he was attempting to avoid the helmet to helmet collisions, he was fined. If it's right to call Harrison dirty because of that, I have the right to call every player (pee wee, high school, college and NFL) who played prior to 2010 and made contact with their helmet a thug.

Burfict changed his angle of pursuit to hit a receiver, who didn't have the ball, high in the head. You're trying to compare that to the plays Harrison made that were borderline, for the most part, and he has largely avoided the past few years because he changed his play.

Here's an article I wrote a handful of years ago that speaks to Harrison's issues. Read that, then tell me how I'm a homer and Harrison is a thug.

http://www.steelersxtreme.com/t2211-the-harrison-problem-xtreme-commentary

He's not listening to you. Lol.

Yeah, I know. I tried, yet now I quit. I don't care if anyone wants to draw a connection between Harrison and Burfict. Burfict is a thug, that's the point of this thread. The Cincy organization feeds this behavior and is in a mode to defend it. They suck, but we already know that. BTW, some people thought Jack Lambert was dirty, but history has decided he was a tough guy.

KeepHarrisonTilHes92 wrote:

I've seen some nasty hits. Some from Harrison, some from Ryan Clark, some from other players from other positions from other teams (shocker), and some from Burfict.

The reason why Burfict gets special attention is because his attitude extends beyond bang bang football plays. Spitting is thuggish. Kneeing shoulders is thuggish. Twisting ankles is thuggish. Jawing off and celebrating and instigating is thuggish. Harrison is not these things, even if he hits like a train. Mike Mitchell is closer to what thuggish can be like on the Steelers roster.

Thanks for the attempt KeepHarrison

steelers5895 wrote:

no I hear loud and clear, you guys are dismissing Harrison's intent. he intended to hurt a player just in a different way. everyone else on occasion had an illegal hit but harrison continually did it when he didn't have to.  congrats to him for not twisting someone's ankle.

intent guys

I don't know one football player (except maybe Tom Brady), who doesn't go out there with the intent to hit someone.  The intent is to make the other player not want to catch/touch the ball the rest of the game.  Not to injure them, but to make them wonder, "If I go near that part of the field again, how hard will I get hit?"  That's football, that's the way the game was played (at least until Roger Goodell took over).

With the exception of his hits on QBs (McCoy hit aside), his hits on WRs were based on fast motion and WRs covering up to brace for impact.  Again, as stated, it's very difficult to change speed, and/or direction when players are that close.  It can be done, but to what extend and to what injury of self?

Am I a blind Steelers fan?  No.  I've seen hits on Steelers players which I deemed just as violent as what Harrison has doled out, and weren't deserving of flag or fine.  But they came anyway.

Burfict is certainly in a league of his own, and there's no defense for what he's attempted to do to other players.

Harrison's intent: make the other guy think about getting hit and not about catching the ball (unfortunately some of those plays ended in injury)

Burfict's intent: to hurt players

Harrison has stated he wanted to hurt other players, not injure. That's the goal of every linebacker. The idea is for the other guy to get up real slow and take their time considering if it's worth getting back on the field. And not once in his career did I see Harrison celebrate an injured player.

As you stated, Truck, that's football. If you don't like that mentality, there's always the cheerleaders. Buuuut, the Steelers don't believe in cheerleaders. Their fans should be entertained with the product on the field.

Anyways, it's a great subject to debate. Where is the line drawn between tough play and thuggary?

Steelers5895

It is an interesting debate, especially when it gets to professional sports.  I think this goes hand in hand with cheating at the pro level and the way sports ethics becomes kind of backwards to what we teach our children when they learn a sport, and even different the values we preach.  It's hard to get into the mind of a person who's paid to use their own body to punish somebody else.  Paid very well to do so.

Ryan Clark once said you'll know when it's time to quit when you break from that huddle and don't want to hit the guy on the other side.  Punishment is inherent in the sport.  

Mike Tyson once said "I'll f@#k you till you love me."  He was crazy and going into his mindset should probably be avoided.

James Harrison said he was trying to hurt people.  It wasn't Cuddly Teddy Bear Joe Greene.  It was Mean Joe Greene.

Personally, if I were playing defense at the pro level I'd dig so hard into their body they physically and mentally wouldn't be able to raise there elbows away from their ribs in order to catch a pass or use your hands to get away from me.

IowaSteeler927 wrote:

Steelers5895

It's good to see someone who yearns to carry on the legacy of Mark Madden. And by good, I mean

I'll say that if Harrison's and Burfict's intent are exactly the same, that Harrison has a good poker face, and that Burfict has "injure anybody I can" written on his face, mannerisms, and attitude.

So it's easy for us to point at Burfict and come to general consensus and go "yeah hes a thug." We can plainly use our collective ability to sum up those three things and actually conclude his intent.

Now, with Harrison. Since he doesnt celebrate, spit, jaw off, etc. It could be either A. He wants to injure and end careers. Or B. He wants to hurt players, instill fear in them.

Neither are rosey, but at least one of those fall in line with football. Please concede that in a fast and physical sport, actions that occur during football plays that comprise of football moves make for weak evidence of intent. What makes for better evidence of intent are when those actions are heavily peppered with behaviors that allude to that intent when football isnt being played. Burfict in the two examples, might as well after every dirty play, walk to the referee and say "I'm trying to injure that guy, you blew the whistle too fast."

Stone-faced Harrison, now. If you think you can accurately determine the same intent by looking at him, without the aid of the burfict-esque extracurriculars, then you're an excellent judge of character. You could say that intent couldn't be disproven either from that set of assumptions. But lo and behold, this thread wasnt about Harrison. It was about Burfict, whose intent is written plainly in everything he does.

At the end of the day I just hope that the person whose been pooping on Burfict's porch is still doing it.

IowaSteeler927 wrote:

At the end of the day I just hope that the person whose been pooping on Burfict's porch is still doing it.

Photos please.  

kirklandrules wrote:

IowaSteeler927 wrote:

At the end of the day I just hope that the person whose been pooping on Burfict's porch is still doing it.

Photos please.