It's Time for Joey Porter to Shut Up About Jarvis Jones

[quote="SteelersCanada"]

tony hipchest wrote:

Side note: I have never and will never understand the infatuation with Chickillo on here. He's a converted defensive end that hasn't shown the ability and athleticism to properly transition to OLB.

If you have seen some Chickillo as he leaned down like in the East-West shrine game(he was still around 270), you would see that he has the quickness, leverage and hand skills that are what can be productive to convert to an OLB. He's the classic guy in the Clark Haggans fashion of a player that needs to be converted from DE to OLB, but Chickillo was asked to bulk up to 280 and play a 3-4DE at Miami, when he really has a 4-3DE skillset.

Chickillo had some of the same combine numbers of Dante Fowler, and was defensive MVP of the Under Armour all star game as a highschool senior and MVP of the Shrine game as a college senior, so there is some hope for a 6th rounder and the usual underdog fan following of any later round pick and UDFA (insert Beachum, Howard Jones, Kevin Fogg, etc.)

If you look at the pure quickness off the snap, ability to play the run, use of hands to defeat blockers and ability to dip and bend around the edge, Chickillo has better skills as a guy being converted to OLB, than Jarvis Jones had as a 1st round reach. That is why I am optimistic that he can be a contributor and be more productive if given the opportunities that Jarvis Jones was given (but we know there is no pressure to play a 6th rounder).

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

If you have seen some Chickillo as he leaned down like in the East-West shrine game(he was still around 270), you would see that he has the quickness, leverage and hand skills that are what can be productive to convert to an OLB.  He's the classic guy in the Clark Haggans fashion of a player that needs to be converted from DE to OLB, but Chickillo was asked to bulk up to 280 and play a 3-4DE at Miami, when he really has a 4-3DE skillset.

Chickillo had some of the same combine numbers of Dante Fowler, and was defensive MVP of the Under Armour all star game as a highschool senior and MVP of the Shrine game as a college senior, so there is some hope for a 6th rounder and the usual underdog fan following of any later round pick and UDFA (insert Beachum, Howard Jones, Kevin Fogg, etc.)

If you look at the pure quickness off the snap, ability to play the run, use of hands to defeat blockers and ability to dip and bend around the edge, Chickillo has better skills as a guy being converted to OLB, than Jarvis Jones had as a 1st round reach.  That is why I am optimistic that he can be a contributor and be more productive if given the opportunities that Jarvis Jones was given (but we know there is no pressure to play a 6th rounder).

Quite a few valid points in this. I agree that he has the quickness, but disagree on the leverage, particularly in the pre-season. He seemed hesitant and unable to generate any kind of leverage, either inside or with bend on the outside, with any kind of consistency. Even as I say this now I want to provide him every benefit of the doubt because this really is the first time he's been asked to play in that stand up edge rush role.

He was indeed asked to play in Miami's 3-4 as a more traditional defensive end, but his quickness and first step brings with him an added bonus of being able to generate an interior pass rush. He may be new to edge rushing in this particular role, but it's like riding a bike when being asked to penetrate one gap in this sort of scheme.

I'm hesitant in his ability to convert to OLB for the reasons listed prior (and in this post, if we're being fair), but as you've noted, as a late round developmental player the expectations are already low. If he does indeed turn out to be an Arthur Moats-type of player for this team and can be used efficiently in a rotation, it was a hell'uva pick and great coaching on the half of Porter.

I'm more concerned with letting Chickillo walk from this team a la Howard Jones and eventually be moulded into a productive player in this league. Jones looked good today against the Jags.

Maybe we kept the wrong Jones.

SteelersCanada wrote:

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

If you have seen some Chickillo as he leaned down like in the East-West shrine game(he was still around 270), you would see that he has the quickness, leverage and hand skills that are what can be productive to convert to an OLB.  He's the classic guy in the Clark Haggans fashion of a player that needs to be converted from DE to OLB, but Chickillo was asked to bulk up to 280 and play a 3-4DE at Miami, when he really has a 4-3DE skillset.

Chickillo had some of the same combine numbers of Dante Fowler, and was defensive MVP of the Under Armour all star game as a highschool senior and MVP of the Shrine game as a college senior, so there is some hope for a 6th rounder and the usual underdog fan following of any later round pick and UDFA (insert Beachum, Howard Jones, Kevin Fogg, etc.)

If you look at the pure quickness off the snap, ability to play the run, use of hands to defeat blockers and ability to dip and bend around the edge, Chickillo has better skills as a guy being converted to OLB, than Jarvis Jones had as a 1st round reach.  That is why I am optimistic that he can be a contributor and be more productive if given the opportunities that Jarvis Jones was given (but we know there is no pressure to play a 6th rounder).

Quite a few valid points in this. I agree that he has the quickness, but disagree on the leverage, particularly in the pre-season. He seemed hesitant and unable to generate any kind of leverage, either inside or with bend on the outside, with any kind of consistency. Even as I say this now I want to provide him every benefit of the doubt because this really is the first time he's been asked to play in that stand up edge rush role.

He was indeed asked to play in Miami's 3-4 as a more traditional defensive end, but his quickness and first step brings with him an added bonus of being able to generate an interior pass rush. He may be new to edge rushing in this particular role, but it's like riding a bike when being asked to penetrate one gap in this sort of scheme.

I'm hesitant in his ability to convert to OLB for the reasons listed prior (and in this post, if we're being fair), but as you've noted, as a late round developmental player the expectations are already low. If he does indeed turn out to be an Arthur Moats-type of player for this team and can be used efficiently in a rotation, it was a hell'uva pick and great coaching on the half of Porter.

I'm more concerned with letting Chickillo walk from this team a la Howard Jones and eventually be moulded into a productive player in this league. Jones looked good today against the Jags.

Maybe we kept the wrong Jones.

Chickillo has a motor, a 10 yard, 40 yard and short shuttle times that compared to Dante Fowler and Nate Orchard. His learning curve will be coverage and playing without a hand in the ground. He swats the OT's ands and gets into their body with a good dip and rip, plus he plays the run like he did as a 5 tech at Miami, but lacks the 30 extra pounds he had there to anchor.

Indeed, Howard Jones has almost as many sacks as Jarvis' career, in his one game today, but he honestly didn't look like he used his hands well in the preseason and in his 2nd camp, I bet the coaches think they have more upside with Chickillo.

I'm encouraged with what he brings, but also think we have seen about as much as we will from Jones. A good football player, but not a guy that will provide the impact plays or deserves to start on a regular basis in the NFL. Alas, I think Moats is a better OLB than Jarvis Jones will be.

SteelersCanada wrote:

tony hipchest wrote:

that is very noble of him but he did not offer up same courtesy to Mike Adams. That is very hypocritical of him, has he labeled him a bust and said he should be fired.

It's hard to listen to someone constantly trash one second year player while they tell everyone else it's time to shut up about another...

Oh and the reason Jarvis Jones hasn't been successful is because our stupid defensive coaches don't use him how the Kansas City Chiefs use Justin Houston.

Thank you, Zach.

Tony, you and I have battled each other over a lot of (often silly) things, but this is one thing I won't fight you on. Adams' consistent poor play followed by little progression in any area of his game led to me being hypocritical and perhaps too hard on Adams. I didn't extend the same courtesy to Adams and I likely should have -- again, another fair point.

I've been disappointed with Jones' play so far this season and it's unfortunate how unproductive he has been to this point. In a lot of ways, Jones and Adams have a lot of the same technical flaws that I believe will prevent them from being anything more than rotational depth players in this league. Jones still relies too heavily on his athleticism and Adams still struggles in pass protection with his kickslide. Their biggest areas of concern and areas that needed the most improvement have seen little to no progress.

If Jones' play doesn't considerably improve from now to the end of the season, it's time to start looking for someone who can complement Dupree on the right side. I do not believe that player is on the roster right now, Chickillo included.

Side note: I have never and will never understand the infatuation with Chickillo on here. He's a converted defensive end that hasn't shown the ability and athleticism to properly transition to OLB. Howard Jones -- another player I preached patience and willingness to develop and said should've made this years 53 -- just registered his second sack for the Bucs today. Looks like we may have kept the wrong Jones.

Side note 2: It's interesting to mention the Chiefs and Jones, because under Butler, the defensive ends are being asked to play one-gap and get pressure up the middle instead of trying to play Heyward like a 2-gap, traditional 5-tech DE. Though I won't open that particular can of worms again.

Hey brother, glad you're still here.

I just wanted to remind everyone what the original backstory was on your opinion of Jarvis Jones, and how the thread went crazy and maybe everyone didn't know how you really felt about the player when he was drafted.

That thread was the 800lb gorilla at SF! To my knowledge, it didn't leave the front page from the time you created it!

Anyway.....glad to have you back around. I hope you stay with us full time.

On Chickillo, I agree with Gonzo on this one. I love this guy's motor, plus his hand skills are far beyond what Jones showed coming out of college. He shows a natural ability to defeat the guy in front of him, regardless of where he was drafted. From a physical standpoint, he reminds me of Mike Vrabel a little bit.

I like his game, and think he can become a good performer going forward. He needed to drop some weight and he needs to make the complete transformation to OLB that only comes with reps. Playing in space is almost always the hardest thing to learn for a down defensive lineman, but I think he has the athleticism to do it.

pczach, I will agree that the "shut up about Jarvis Jones" was a big thread in its time on SF. I also think there were a lot of others recently like "Jason Worilds drafted over Sean Lee" that highlighted prognostication of Pete....the "Jasom Worlids will have 11 sacks.." , "Mike Adams is in danger of being cut in Training Camp".

All those were big in their day, but there were big meltdown threads, some Redman-suddenness and glide threads too that were classics and I find hard to compare.

Its like comparing Sammy Baugh, Bart Starr, Johnny U, Staubach, Bradshaw, Montana, Elway, Manning, etc. tough to compare from different era's, but easy to appreciate all for the work.

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

pczach, I will agree that the "shut up about Jarvis Jones" was a big thread in its time on SF.  I also think there were a lot of others recently like "Jason Worilds drafted over Sean Lee"  that highlighted prognostication of Pete....the "Jasom Worlids will have 11 sacks.." , "Mike Adams is in danger of being cut in Training Camp".

All those were big in their day, but there were big meltdown threads, some Redman-suddenness and glide threads too that were classics and I find hard to compare.

Its like comparing Sammy Baugh, Bart Starr, Johnny U, Staubach, Bradshaw, Montana, Elway, Manning, etc.  tough to compare from different era's, but easy to appreciate all for the work.

Ahhhhhh.........a man that appreciates the finer things in life. It really is hard to seperate or compare greatness.


We had a small part in some of that. Who can forget the Redman is better than Le'Veon Bell conversations?

Thanks for reminding me.

I miss the "Tony hipchest is a sissy" thread.

Or " how many Steeler fans does it take to change a lightbulb?". =50 pages of great jokes at some poor schmucks expense.

But on this day nothing is more classic than "in 1492 Columbus discovered..."

The benals suck.

Jarvis Jones! Lol

Elizabeth, this is the big one !!!!

tony hipchest wrote:

I miss the "Tony hipchest is a sissy" thread.

Or " how many Steeler fans does it take to change a lightbulb?". =50 pages of great jokes at some poor schmucks expense.

But on this day nothing is more classic than "in 1492 Columbus discovered..."

The benals suck.

1492 is definitely one of the greats!! It was to that forum, as Freebird, Stairway to Heaven or Back in Black was to rock music.

The "Sissy" thread was kind of like "Jesse's Girl" for me....entertaining and something I never get tired of hearing about, but more of a 1 hit wonder.

Yeah... Sissy thread couldn't even stand up to "c'mon Eileen" in those regards. Lol

tony hipchest wrote:

Yeah... Sissy thread couldn't even stand up to "c'mon Eileen" in those regards.  Lol

yeah, at times I thought the Sissy thread Rocked the Casbah, but other times I saw good posts and said to myself.."I think we're alone now"

Gotta give Jones some credit for tonight. He had a sack of Rivers, he generated a fair amount of pressure, and he also had a forced fumble that gave us the ball back despite the offense failing to capitalize on said turnover. Still, I'd like to see him do this with more consistency, and against some of the better lineman in the league. He was playing against a Chargers' o-line that is hampered by injuries, so I think that that deserves some consideration considering his success.

Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree both had good games. Now... if Shazier and Shmarko Thomas can contribute on a regular basis... the future is bright for the Steelers D.

HeinzMustard wrote:

Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree both had good games.   Now... if Shazier and Shmarko Thomas can contribute on a regular basis... the future is bright for the Steelers D.

Shazier just has to stay healthy. Still holding out hope for Sharmenko but I think we go SS early next year. But I'll throw out another name- Tuitt. Stephon is looking like what we'd hoped Ziggy Hood and Cam would be together.

ImmaculateGreenePolamalu wrote:

HeinzMustard wrote:

Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree both had good games.   Now... if Shazier and Shmarko Thomas can contribute on a regular basis... the future is bright for the Steelers D.

Shazier just has to stay healthy. Still holding out hope for Sharmenko but I think we go SS early next year. But I'll throw out another name- Tuitt. Stephon is looking like what we'd hoped Ziggy Hood and Cam would be together.

Tuitt is my new favorite player on D.  That dude brings it every play.  Steelers haven't had DEs this good since Aaron Smith and Keisel were in their primes. The 1-gap style of play that Butler has implemented for the D-line has been a success so far.

IowaSteeler927 wrote:

Gotta give Jones some credit for tonight. He had a sack of Rivers, he generated a fair amount of pressure, and he also had a forced fumble that gave us the ball back despite the offense failing to capitalize on said turnover. Still, I'd like to see him do this with more consistency, and against some of the better lineman in the league. He was playing against a Chargers' o-line that is hampered by injuries, so I think that that deserves some consideration considering his success.

Jones was bull rushing his opposition in the pass game and he has leverage and was successful. Its still the only move he has and when the pocket collapsed, he got Rivers on the ground. Full marks for the forced fumble.

I still think he lacks the athleticism to play that side. I think of a screen to the flat on the left side and Dupree tracked it down to get in on the tackle, while the same play happened to the other side and Jones lack of quickness gets him blocked and the play went for something like 20 yards.

Said it before, I think if you switch the sides of Dupree and Jones, the skillsets are better match, but still not sure he is our best option on the left side. I still think Jarvis Jones is the 4th best OLB on this team.

HeinzMustard wrote:

ImmaculateGreenePolamalu wrote:

HeinzMustard wrote:

Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree both had good games.   Now... if Shazier and Shmarko Thomas can contribute on a regular basis... the future is bright for the Steelers D.

Shazier just has to stay healthy. Still holding out hope for Sharmenko but I think we go SS early next year. But I'll throw out another name- Tuitt. Stephon is looking like what we'd hoped Ziggy Hood and Cam would be together.

Tuitt is my new favorite player on D.  That dude brings it every play.  Steelers haven't had DEs this good since Aaron Smith and Keisel were in their primes.  The 1-gap style of play that Butler has implemented for the D-line has been a success so far.

Yeah Stephon seems to have a real nose for the ball and ball carrier. I think one thing I've noticed with Butler's scheme is that the DE's are more involved. I suppose that's more of taking advantage of Cam and Stephon's skill sets. But you're right, having those two is like when we had Aaron and Brett in their primes. I can see why Tuitt was considered a first round grade before his injury senior year. The guy just as you say brings it. We're starting to I think see the creation of a new Steeler D. I really like what I've seen from Bud so far too. 3 sacks in 5 games. Keeps up that pace and he'll finish with 9. Not bad for a rookie at all.

Butler is letting the DE's rush and put pressure on the QB. Tuitt and Heyward, aided by some blitzes, are getting into the backfield quite a bit.
It's obvious that this new approach is helping our secondary.
Although, Gates ate us up down the middle of the field.

ImmaculateGreenePolamalu wrote:

HeinzMustard wrote:

ImmaculateGreenePolamalu wrote:

HeinzMustard wrote:

Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree both had good games.   Now... if Shazier and Shmarko Thomas can contribute on a regular basis... the future is bright for the Steelers D.

Shazier just has to stay healthy. Still holding out hope for Sharmenko but I think we go SS early next year. But I'll throw out another name- Tuitt. Stephon is looking like what we'd hoped Ziggy Hood and Cam would be together.

Tuitt is my new favorite player on D.  That dude brings it every play.  Steelers haven't had DEs this good since Aaron Smith and Keisel were in their primes.  The 1-gap style of play that Butler has implemented for the D-line has been a success so far.

Yeah Stephon seems to have a real nose for the ball and ball carrier. I think one thing I've noticed with Butler's scheme is that the DE's are more involved. I suppose that's more of taking advantage of Cam and Stephon's skill sets. But you're right, having those two is like when we had Aaron and Brett in their primes. I can see why Tuitt was considered a first round grade before his injury senior year. The guy just as you say brings it. We're starting to I think see the creation of a new Steeler D. I really like what I've seen from Bud so far too. 3 sacks in 5 games. Keeps up that pace and he'll finish with 9. Not bad for a rookie at all.

Yeah, always liked Tuitt from his time in college. Loved the draft pick. Still need some Cam Thomas and LT Walton to step up and take some snaps to keep the starters fresh. Dupree is a solid pick and his quickness and power give RT's issues in the pass game. Just think what leaps he can make by year 2 with this team?

I think Joey Porter is keeping shut up about Anthony Chickillo, so that he sneaks into camp under the radar next season.

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

ImmaculateGreenePolamalu wrote:

HeinzMustard wrote:

ImmaculateGreenePolamalu wrote:

HeinzMustard wrote:

Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree both had good games.   Now... if Shazier and Shmarko Thomas can contribute on a regular basis... the future is bright for the Steelers D.

Shazier just has to stay healthy. Still holding out hope for Sharmenko but I think we go SS early next year. But I'll throw out another name- Tuitt. Stephon is looking like what we'd hoped Ziggy Hood and Cam would be together.

Tuitt is my new favorite player on D.  That dude brings it every play.  Steelers haven't had DEs this good since Aaron Smith and Keisel were in their primes.  The 1-gap style of play that Butler has implemented for the D-line has been a success so far.

Yeah Stephon seems to have a real nose for the ball and ball carrier. I think one thing I've noticed with Butler's scheme is that the DE's are more involved. I suppose that's more of taking advantage of Cam and Stephon's skill sets. But you're right, having those two is like when we had Aaron and Brett in their primes. I can see why Tuitt was considered a first round grade before his injury senior year. The guy just as you say brings it. We're starting to I think see the creation of a new Steeler D. I really like what I've seen from Bud so far too. 3 sacks in 5 games. Keeps up that pace and he'll finish with 9. Not bad for a rookie at all.

Yeah, always liked Tuitt from his time in college.  Loved the draft pick.  Still need some Cam Thomas and LT Walton to step up and take some snaps to keep the starters fresh.  Dupree is a solid pick and his quickness and power give RT's issues in the pass game.  Just think what leaps he can make by year 2 with this team?

I think Joey Porter is keeping shut up about Anthony Chickillo, so that he sneaks into camp under the radar next season.

Speaking of Chickillo, reports were saying he looked a lot better than Dupree in camp. Dupree's looking pretty damn good so far, so if Chickillo is supposedly right there with him, we could have a deep OLB corps in years to come

FrancoLambert wrote:

Butler is letting the DE's rush and put pressure on the QB.  Tuitt and Heyward, aided by some blitzes, are getting into the backfield quite a bit.
It's obvious that this new approach is helping our secondary.
Although, Gates ate us up down the middle of the field.

True and with this new defenisve philosophy, we seem to be more susceptible to big running plays. But overall I'm liking these changes, we're getting to the QB and causing sacks / turnovers.

Gates is a monster, I don't know if there's a way to fully shut him down. He's just that kind of talent that creates mismatches. He's getting up there in age, but he did post 12 TD's last year, old man's still got it.

The difference between Tuitt and Hood are that the Steelers thought Hood could transition into the 2 gap DE they ran back then. Tuitt was a very good 1 gap DE at Notre Dame. Funny enough, I think Hood would fit this 1 gap system better.

But maybe the greatest difference between the two is that it's easier to step in after Hood than it is to step in after Aaron Smith?

Jarvis, maybe for the first time in his career, looked like a first round draft pick last night. Consistent pressure which eventually resulted in a sack (one that he can thank Heyward and Tuitt for as they completely demolished the pocket) and forced a fumble. He also looked pretty stout in the run game last night as well, and tracked a number of runners down field after missed assignments.

Encouraging, to say the least. Consistency is needed in this area (most importantly in his ability to generate pressure), but he looked good last night in rotation with Harrison.

SteelersCanada wrote:

Jarvis, maybe for the first time in his career, looked like a first round draft pick last night. Consistent pressure which eventually resulted in a sack (one that he can thank Heyward and Tuitt for as they completely demolished the pocket) and forced a fumble. He also looked pretty stout in the run game last night as well, and tracked a number of runners down field after missed assignments.

Encouraging, to say the least. Consistency is needed in this area (most importantly in his ability to generate pressure), but he looked good last night in rotation with Harrison.

I like to give you a hard time about Jones being a bust, but I was happy to finally see him have an impact on a game (not just a random fluke sack). I hope he can build on it and shed the bust status.